Is it wrong to fear but also feel bad for China?

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Mrbsct

Ad Honorem
Jul 2013
2,659
USA
Title

China is in the cross hairs lately. They have risen to a modern high tech society rivaling the United States. It has come a long way from it century of humiliation to a major world power. Should their human rights abuses be seen as impeding on the modern norms of a civilized globalized world or just another chapter in history?
 
Sep 2019
143
Turkey
you shouldn't, that's a compotation , as in the cold war ; one will one , one will lost and destroy .

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Apr 2017
758
Lemuria
Title

China is in the cross hairs lately. They have risen to a modern high tech society rivaling the United States. It has come a long way from it century of humiliation to a major world power. Should their human rights abuses be seen as impeding on the modern norms of a civilized globalized world or just another chapter in history?
What is China doing that the US hasn't done worse? I don't see China going around bombing sovereign countries to oblivion and destabilising regions creating waves after waves of misery. The US prison system is basically slavery rebranded. You've been brainwashed. Think for yourself. China is of course not perfect.
 

Willempie

Ad Honorem
Jul 2015
5,713
Netherlands
China is in the cross hairs lately. They have risen to a modern high tech society rivaling the United States. It has come a long way from it century of humiliation to a major world power. Should their human rights abuses be seen as impeding on the modern norms of a civilized globalized world or just another chapter in history?
Both.
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,606
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Historically China risked to give an enormous manpower and a great production capability to the Soviet block. It was clear that Washington had to keep the two Communist giants separated. I guess [it's not difficult to make this educated guess] that this is among the geopolitical reasons why the US started open relations with China. The travel of Nixon in 1972 [but Kissinger had been there the year before, in secret] was the beginning of something new. And China expressed the will not to see a third power in the Pacific area [so it was also a pivotal moment for the regional equilibrium: no USSR there ...].

But this gave to China the possibility to keep on growing without competing with US [a great advantage in comparison with USSR which had to make tremendous economic and social efforts during the Cold War]. What at Washington they didn't realize [they are realizing this now] is that Beijing was going [it's physiological for a giant economy needing resources from all around the world] to create its own planetary sphere of influence. Sooner or later this would have meant competition with US.

US are not the EU or the UK [who are substantially accepting the expansion of the Chinese power at economical and geopolitical level]. They won't renounce to parts of their sphere of influence ...
 

Baldtastic

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,594
Londinium
USA has been around for some 270 years, the PRC only 70. To rigidly compare them both on in their interactions with other nations is misleading. We don't know what China is like on the world stage. In their domestic sphere, all news is so tightly controlled, alongside all other aspects of their society, it's hard to tell (even if you're Chinese and living in China) what their government actually believe is the correct way to govern.

Of those 70 years, China has only been active on the world stage for about 20. Even within those 20, China is still restricted by numerous factors for projecting world power.

Let's wait and see how China reacts during this coming century; let's wait and see how Chinese people themselves act towards other nations.
 
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Aug 2019
18
Universe, Milky way, Sol System, Easrt
What is China doing that the US hasn't done worse? I don't see China going around bombing sovereign countries to oblivion and destabilising regions creating waves after waves of misery. The US prison system is basically slavery rebranded. You've been brainwashed. Think for yourself. China is of course not perfect.
Yes the US has done worse but how does that mean that the people that have been wronged should seat down there and watch another power repeat that
 

Larrey

Ad Honorem
Sep 2011
6,102
No reason to worry IF – like people here already suggest – human rights don't matter and aren't real anyway. China is a technologically advanced police state, a one party dictature developing in a totalitaran direction since Xi Jinping took over. But that's all good if there is no real alternative anyway. Likewise, if you accept a "realist" geopolitics, it was ever thus that "the strong do what they want and the weak suffer what they must". The Greeks came up with that one already.

Since human rights are a mere fictions, and might is right, clearly China is in the right. (If the "we" you ascribe to is strong it's all fine, if it's not you don't matter anyway, pity the Chinese who are not Chinese citizens but China regardless claims). Don't bother about things like rule-of-law, international law, and multilateralism. Those are all fictional anyway.

However, and the Greeks came up with it as well: "Might untempered by justice never lasts". So we'll just have to see.

Of course, the denial of justice – with attendant human rights, representative government, rule-of-law, international law, multilateralism etc. – are is self-fulfilling. If not valued and not defended, they will of course lapse. "Might is right" is a formula for justice according to some anyway. What would be so fantastic about that situation someone might want to explain. Most complaints about human rights etc. are either self-serving power-plays or a matter of dissatisfaction with the imperfections of international politics that amount to the analogy of concluding that just because no operating theatre can be made 100% sterile, one can just as well do surgery in and open sewer.
 
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Larrey

Ad Honorem
Sep 2011
6,102
Yes the US has done worse but how does that mean that the people that have been wronged should seat down there and watch another power repeat that
The US at least so far has operated according to sets of principles that makes it possible to 1) conclude when the US has acted in a manner and/or spirit that goes against them, and 2) the US has, so far, been possible to shame over it.

With Trump and the recent development of the US Republicans, we'll just have to see.

The "newspeak" thing have been with us at least through the Soviets system, then the Fascist and Nazi, these days China is the main purveyor of it, but with official Russian statements increasingly returning to it. The really new aspect of it is how the US political system, and increasingly the UK one, have been subverted by corporate finance and the super-rich, into something increasingly resembling it, in a state capitalist sort of way. (Freedom is pitted as an opposition between democracy and ownership, and if in the final analysis the state really has dibs on everything, then democracy is slavery, and the what the state decrees is freedom, and nothing outside it.)

Everyone should well worry that the world is developing in a direction where the EU is the remaining bulwark against this new totalitarianism with state capitalist hallmarks. The EU still has official principles embodied in its legislation that specifies that the free formation of public opinion, expressed through representative government, is a necessity for any society to be a free and open one. Chins does not, Russia does not, the US is increasingly dodgy on the mater, and the UK is leaving the format of the EU...

However this turns out, this is the retreat of post-WWII international politics, as dominated by the US, with the UK in attendance. Everyone needs to decide what values and principles they are willing to stand for henceforth.
 
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