Is Jesus Christ a Roman citizen?

Mar 2015
858
Europe
#11
No historian can claim to know that. That can be a statement of faith, not a historical one.
Yes, but that´s where hypotheses about the underlying facts are relevant to clarify the implications.

Celsus specifically claims that Mary was
Celsus said:
a poor woman of the country, who gained her subsistence by spinning, and who was turned out of doors by her husband, a carpenter by trade, because she was convicted of adultery; that after being driven away by her husband, and wandering about for a time, she disgracefully gave birth to Jesus, an illegitimate child
The Christian accounts specifically differ, in that Joseph stood by Mary, and Mary was not convicted of adultery.

If Mary was suspected of adultery, but not convicted because Joseph although certain of her guilt (he knew he had not known her, the public did not know that) connived at her adultery and declined to bring charges or to turn her out, did this legally turn Jesus a "mamzer" under Jewish laws?
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,543
Portugal
#12
Yes, but that´s where hypotheses about the underlying facts are relevant to clarify the implications.

Celsus specifically claims that Mary was


The Christian accounts specifically differ, in that Joseph stood by Mary, and Mary was not convicted of adultery.

If Mary was suspected of adultery, but not convicted because Joseph although certain of her guilt (he knew he had not known her, the public did not know that) connived at her adultery and declined to bring charges or to turn her out, did this legally turn Jesus a "mamzer" under Jewish laws?
If he was a “mamzer” or not I don’t know. It would depend if Joseph legitimized the child. I don’t know if he did.

My only point was solely on the intimacy of characters, that we take as historical. We can never state much about their intimacy.
 
Mar 2015
858
Europe
#15
Bible mentions a status of "mamzer", but does not explain what makes a mamzer.
Talmud does. And Talmud specifies that parents being unmarried is not sufficient to make the child a mamzer.
In Talmud, a mamzer is a child whose parents were barred from marrying each other either by incest laws or by the mother being married to someone else.

If Jesus was Joseph´s son then he was not a "mamzer" whether or not Joseph and Mary were "married" as of Annunciation. The only way Jesus could count as a "mamzer" was then if Mary was "married" and having Jesus counted as "adultery", whether with Pantera or with God.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,543
Portugal
#16
Bible mentions a status of "mamzer", but does not explain what makes a mamzer.
Talmud does. And Talmud specifies that parents being unmarried is not sufficient to make the child a mamzer.
In Talmud, a mamzer is a child whose parents were barred from marrying each other either by incest laws or by the mother being married to someone else.

If Jesus was Joseph´s son then he was not a "mamzer" whether or not Joseph and Mary were "married" as of Annunciation. The only way Jesus could count as a "mamzer" was then if Mary was "married" and having Jesus counted as "adultery", whether with Pantera or with God.
Like I said in post #12:

If he was a “mamzer” or not I don’t know.
 

Theodoric

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
2,814
#17
The virgin birth story is a later addition. It only appears in Matthew and Luke, no mention in John or Mark, acts, or the epistles. If this was an original part of the story, such an extraordinary tale would be mentioned throughout the new testament texts. Matthew and Luke are largely not regarded as original Gospels.
 
Jul 2017
842
Crete
#18
Plutarch became a Roman citizen through the sponsorship of Lucius Mestrius Florus and thus that same process must have happened to Paul, in order to gain that Latin praenomina.

All the Latin names are praenomina i.e Marcus, Mettius, Petrus and Lucius , who sponsored them?
 
Mar 2015
858
Europe
#19
The virgin birth story is a later addition. It only appears in Matthew and Luke, no mention in John or Mark, acts, or the epistles. If this was an original part of the story, such an extraordinary tale would be mentioned throughout the new testament texts. Matthew and Luke are largely not regarded as original Gospels.
The whole story of Jesus´ birth and childhood is only present in Matthew and Luke. John and Mark start their account only with his preaching.
And the accounts of Matthew and Luke are so divergent from each other that it looks most of them are made out of whole cloth. When Jesus became important, Christians no longer remembered his childhood, and neither did his enemies.
 

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