Is MI5 interfering in Scottish affairs?

Status
Closed
May 2018
17
North Britain
morayloon: ‘The UKs membership of the EU was not in doubt during the Indyref campaign. Indeed, we were told that the only way to ensure Scotland stayed in the EU was by voting NO
Untrue. The then-upcoming referendum on EU membership was widely publicised as part of the SNP’s pro-independence campaign, with the SNP claiming that independence was the means to ensure staying in their EU.
But this democratic flaw could take on a whole new dimension as Westminster drifts inexorably towards holding a referendum on the UK's membership of the European Union. … Not surprisingly, the SNP is already arguing that leaving the UK might be the only way for Scotland to guarantee it remains in the EU.
(“Scotland's tough call: stay in the UK, or stay in the EU?Guardian, 19 May 2013)
Just look at the attitude of European governments towards Westminster’s in/out referendum. … And of course the real risk to Scotland’s EU membership is the proposed UK-wide referendum on whether to exit the EU.
(“Common sense on Scotland and the EU.” Yes Scotland, 25 Feb 2014)
From an unarchived ‘Related’ section on the above page:
In/out EU vote underlines uncertainty of staying in Union
Yesterday’s promise from the Prime Minister, David Cameron, of an in/out referendum on the UK’s membership of the EU has highlighted that the real threat to Scotland’s place in Europe lies with Westminster.
Alex Salmond said the prospect of an in/out referendum risked Scotland being “dragged out” of the EU. … Mr Cameron has promised a referendum on the UK’s membership of the EU if the Conservatives win the next general election. … Mr Salmond said next month’s referendum on Scottish independence was very different to the referendum on European Union membership promised by the prime minister. “The debate in Scotland is that we should not place ourselves in the position, given that we are only 8% of the UK population, of potentially being dragged out of the European Union against our wishes, against our will, which might be the position if we are foolish enough to have a ‘No’ vote in this referendum.”
(“Scottish independence: Alex Salmond says Eurosceptics ‘damaging Scotland’.” BBC, 29 Aug 2014)

As can be seen, no separatist has grounds to suggest that the prospect of leaving the EU was not a factor informing the voters’ decision to remain in our UK; and implicit in voting for the Union was agreeing to abide by future decisions of Her Majesty’s Government and the British people as a whole.

GogLais: ‘Scotland doesn’t like the result’ As I have already written, the SNP Scotland. The separatists are a minority and speak not for Scotland but themselves alone (see graphic).
 

Attachments

Sep 2013
4,700
Wirral
morayloon: ‘The UKs membership of the EU was not in doubt during the Indyref campaign. Indeed, we were told that the only way to ensure Scotland stayed in the EU was by voting NO
Untrue. The then-upcoming referendum on EU membership was widely publicised as part of the SNP’s pro-independence campaign, with the SNP claiming that independence was the means to ensure staying in their EU.
(“Scotland's tough call: stay in the UK, or stay in the EU?Guardian, 19 May 2013)
(“Common sense on Scotland and the EU.” Yes Scotland, 25 Feb 2014)
From an unarchived ‘Related’ section on the above page:


(“Scottish independence: Alex Salmond says Eurosceptics ‘damaging Scotland’.” BBC, 29 Aug 2014)

As can be seen, no separatist has grounds to suggest that the prospect of leaving the EU was not a factor informing the voters’ decision to remain in our UK; and implicit in voting for the Union was agreeing to abide by future decisions of Her Majesty’s Government and the British people as a whole.

GogLais: ‘Scotland doesn’t like the result’ As I have already written, the SNP Scotland. The separatists are a minority and speak not for Scotland but themselves alone (see graphic).
Ok. My incorrect recollection was that the prospect of a U.K. referendum was mostly ignored, the separatists have even less to complain about than I thought then. I leave it to the Scots to decide who speaks for them.
 
Dec 2011
8,205
Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk.
  • Bish

    Bish

The Scottish referendum took place in September 2014. In January 2013 Cameron promised renegotiation with the EU and then a referendum if the Tories won the next general election in 2015 so the U.K.’s continuing membership of the EU was in doubt. The main issue discussed in the Scottish referendum was whether an independent Scotland could easily get membership of the EU. However the supporters of independence don’t seem to have argued that continuing U.K. membership of the EU was uncertain.

There are only so many ways of the same thing - Scotland voted to stay in the U.K., the U.K. had a referendum, Scotland doesn’t like the result - bluntly either get over it or do something about it.
Well said that man
 
May 2018
17
North Britain
The entire premise of this thread is nonsense. From OP’s first post: ‘As far as I am concerned these people are not just going to sit back and let Independence happen.’ Cameron could easily (and should) have told the SNP to take a hike ‘500 miles and … 500 more’ in 2011—gaining 69 (<53½%) of Holyrood’s 129 seats from only 22½% of Scotland’s electorate and not even 2% of Britain’s, does not a mandate for an independence referendum make.

As for ‘They tried to silence a pro-Independence blog by using the state broadcaster to terminate its YouTube channels.’ Sauce for this? Must ask given the SNP’s inclination to exaggerate and plain lie; and also as silencing journalists is more the SNP’s gig:
Journalist ‘gagged’ by broadcaster after pressure from SNP.” Herald Scotland, 19 Aug 2016.
Pete Wishart, MP for Perth (who reduced a 9,641 majority to 21 in two years), has a good chortle with his fellow snappers over SNP censorship: https://archive.is/M5xhx
BBC’s Nick Robinson attacks ‘bullying’ over Scottish referendum coverage.” Guardian, 21 Aug 2015.
SNP operated secret FOI regime making it harder for journalists and MSPs to get information.” Daily Telegraph, 13 Jun 2018.

And the very notion that anyone in any department of HMG cares at all about Salmond is risible. He’s yesterday’s man: he lost the 2014 referendum; then, instead of manning up and encouraging the faithful with Dunkirk sentiments, he ran; managed to ride the coattails of the disappointed separatists congealing behind the SNP into Westminster in 2015, only to be booted out of his Gordon seat two years later. He always was a mediocrity; that he was not exposed as such long before is due to an at least equally mediocre when out outright incompetent media and political opposition.

As for the accusations: the #MeToo hysteria has half the women on the planet looking around for someone to chuck an accusation at. No security forces involvement required.
 

Attachments

May 2011
1,161
Morayshire, Scotland
The Scottish referendum took place in September 2014. In January 2013 Cameron promised renegotiation with the EU and then a referendum if the Tories won the next general election in 2015 so the U.K.’s continuing membership of the EU was in doubt. The main issue discussed in the Scottish referendum was whether an independent Scotland could easily get membership of the EU. However the supporters of independence don’t seem to have argued that continuing U.K. membership of the EU was uncertain
You are right about 2013. However, the White Paper - published November 2013 - (p456) states that "... the only real risk to Scotland's membership of the EU is the referendum proposed by the Prime Minister". So, there was recognition of the planned Cameron action. However, at the time the then Government did not look like they would win any upcoming election. Right up to Polling day that was the case. So, there was no inevitability about Brexit. Hindsight is a great thing.
During the referendum, you are right, concentration was on Scotland's position in the EU inthe event of a Yes vote. The esoteric ramblings of the RW (and some Labourites) about Brexit played, if I recall correctly, little or no part in the process.


There are only so many ways of the same thing - Scotland voted to stay in the U.K., the U.K. had a referendum, Scotland doesn’t like the result - bluntly either get over it or do something about it.
There is still a majority against independence so your 'Scotland doesn’t like the result' generalisation holds no water. As for us Yes supporters, we continue the fight. We totally accepted the result but things have changed dramatically. Scotland is being forced out of the EU because of the result in another country. 62% voted to remain but their voices have been ignored
 
Sep 2013
4,700
Wirral
There is still a majority against independence so your 'Scotland doesn’t like the result' generalisation holds no water. As for us Yes supporters, we continue the fight. We totally accepted the result but things have changed dramatically. Scotland is being forced out of the EU because of the result in another country. 62% voted to remain but their voices have been ignored
I meant Scotland doesn’t like the U.K. Brexit result.
 
May 2011
1,161
Morayshire, Scotland
The entire premise of this thread is nonsense. From OP’s first post: ‘As far as I am concerned these people are not just going to sit back and let Independence happen.’ Cameron could easily (and should) have told the SNP to take a hike ‘500 miles and … 500 more’ in 2011—gaining 69 (<53½%) of Holyrood’s 129 seats from only 22½% of Scotland’s electorate and not even 2% of Britain’s, does not a mandate for an independence referendum make
So, an anti Scot joins the fray. Someone who would rather be ruled from another country than have 'his' country running its own affairs.
Cameron agreed to Indyref because he, and the Brit establishment, reckoned it was a cake-walk. Yes was languishing in the low to mid 20%s. As far as they were concerned here was no risk.
As for you spin with figures, Brexit happened on a much lower outcome at the polls. Cameron may have gone into the election with the promise of a referendum but Salmond went into the 2011 election with a promise to hold an Indyref. Salmond achieved a much bigger majority. There was absolutely no way his stance could be ignored.

As for ‘They tried to silence a pro-Independence blog by using the state broadcaster to terminate its YouTube channels.’ Sauce for this? Must ask given the SNP’s inclination to exaggerate
Are you really saying that Wings was not suspended by YouTube at the behest of the BBC? I think you should do a little research before making accusations.

and plain lie; and also as silencing journalists is more the SNP’s gig:
Journalist ‘gagged’ by broadcaster after pressure from SNP.” Herald Scotland, 19 Aug 2016
That was 'fake news'. Stuart Campbell pointed out that "Neither STV nor Stephen Daisley has made any admission or claim that the broadcaster has “called a halt” to Daisley’s commentary" More phantom news Now I know very well that you will not read that article and there-in lies the problem with you Unionists - you can't bear the truth coming out.

Pete Wishart, MP for Perth (who reduced a 9,641 majority to 21 in two years), has a good chortle with his fellow snappers over SNP censorship: https://archive.is/M5xhx
BBC’s Nick Robinson attacks ‘bullying’ over Scottish referendum coverage.” Guardian, 21 Aug 2015.
SNP operated secret FOI regime making it harder for journalists and MSPs to get information.” Daily Telegraph, 13 Jun 2018
Wishart was having a joke. Don't you Unionists know anything about that? As for FOI requests you should check out your soul-mates at BBC Scotland.


And the very notion that anyone in any department of HMG cares at all about Salmond is risible. He’s yesterday’s man: he lost the 2014 referendum; then, instead of manning up and encouraging the faithful with Dunkirk sentiments, he ran; managed to ride the coattails of the disappointed separatists congealing behind the SNP into Westminster in 2015, only to be booted out of his Gordon seat two years later. He always was a mediocrity; that he was not exposed as such long before is due to an at least equally mediocre when out outright incompetent media and political opposition.
You Unionists know all about mediocrity!!!
Salmond won elections he achieved what many of us thought impossible - a referendum. Along with the Yes leadership he achieved a dramatic increase in Indy support - almost taking us to victory.
 
May 2018
17
North Britain
morayloon: ‘We totally accepted the result’ Untrue. Salmond was whinging mere days later and threatening UDI only weeks after that.
Alex Salmond urged to drop referendum ‘conspiracy’ theories”, Daily Telegraph, 23 Sep 2014.
Salmond’s parting shot: Scotland could leave the UK of its own accord”, Independent, 14 Nov 2014.
Alex Salmond Says UDI is a Route to Independence”, uploaded by Scottish Independence, 5 Dec 2014.
And he’s far from alone:
The SNP's very Scottish conspiracy…”, Daily Telegraph, 19 Apr 2015.
And as for the headcases one stumbles upon on social media with their conspiracy theories… here’s one I came across the other day.

GogLais: ‘I meant Scotland doesn’t like the U.K. Brexit result.
We are not the Borg up here. How often must I write this? Scotland ≠ SNPland. Scotland. Does. Not. Equal. SNPland.
And 1,018,322 of us voted for Brexit; which admittedly is 642,869 less than those who voted Remain, but even those Remain-voters are not all separatists nor have they since converted, there being a world of difference between preferring a United Kingdom within the EU and wanting to destroy a 400 year old nation out of overarching loyalty to the EU.
 
May 2011
1,161
Morayshire, Scotland
GogLais: ‘What the Scots do now …
I hope you’ll remember that the SNP ≠ Scotland: separatists might be a substantial minority but are nonetheless a minority, albeit an annoyingly vocal one; and they are a decreasing minority as well.
• 2014 Referendum: Loyal: 2,001,926 (55.25% of turnout, 46.73% of electorate) / Disloyal: 1,617,989 (44.65% of turnout, 37.77% of electorate)
1,617,989 Loyal : 2,001,926 disloyal. Many of the latter voted No for their very own reasons. But some did so for traitorous reasons.
• 2015 GE: SNP 1,454,436 (49.97% of turnout, 35.52% of electorate; down 163,553 votes)
Not comparable. The Referendum vote was not an SNP vote. Also turnout was significantly lower.
2016 SE: SNP Constituency vote: 1,059,898 (46.32% of turnout, 25.85% of electorate) / SNP Regional List vote: 953,587 (41.65% of turnout, 23.26% of electorate); down another 394,538 votes
Lower turnout again.
• 2017 GE: SNP 977,568 (36.84% of turnout, 24.51% of electorate; and down another 82,330 votes)
There was no positive Indy message. Many supporters did not vote.

One should also note that much separatist support derives from people who are not even British. You might think you’re arguing with a Scot but half of them turn out to be as Scottish as Herr Mittler.
What has that got to do with anything

Note to Mods this guy is trying to get this thread locked by introducing party politics.
I know he is a newcomer and maybe doesn't know the rules but perhaps a little slap on the wrist is merited.
 
May 2018
17
North Britain
morayloon: ‘Are you really saying that Wings was not suspended by YouTube at the behest of the BBC?’ I asked for a source, not gossip.
morayloon: ‘So, an anti Scot joins the fray.’ You’re the one consorting with foreigners—assuming for the sake of argument that you are actually a Scot yourself—in order to destroy the Kingdom created by our own James VI.
Amongst the non-British supporters of ‘independence’ were: Africans for an Independent Scotland (led by a Jamaican), Americans for Scottish Independence, Eu Citizens for an Independent Scotland, French for Yes, Germans for Scottish Independence, Irish for Yes (big surprise), Netherlands for Scottish Independence Group, Polish Scots for Yes, and Scots Asians For YES to an Independent Scotland (behind which is several times failed SNP candidate, Nighet Riaz, born in Birmingham of Pakistani parents).

morayloon: ‘Note to Mods this guy is trying to get this thread locked by introducing party politics.
I know he is a newcomer and maybe doesn't know the rules but perhaps a little slap on the wrist is merited.

Help, help, I’m being oppressed!
Yes, lets have the Mods deliver judgement on a blatantly political thread created only to promote Scottish separatism.
 
Status
Closed

Similar History Discussions