Is Rus the direct predecessor of Russia?

Nov 2016
80
Serbia
Dont see relevance in digging about long gone Slavic and non-Slavic tribes. The most important legacy from Rus is acception of Orthodxy, and clearly that makes Rus predecessor of Russia.
 
Dec 2017
606
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Dont see relevance in digging about long gone Slavic and non-Slavic tribes. The most important legacy from Rus is acception of Orthodxy, and clearly that makes Rus predecessor of Russia.
Rus state appeared before Rus was baptised. Formally Rus (Kiev to be precise) was baptised in 988. Also there was no Orthodoxy and Catholicism back then. The East-West Schism (split in Christianity to Orthodoxy and Catholicism) occurred in 1054.
 
Jul 2012
742
Australia
Its not possible to talk of a formal Rus state before 988 when Valdimir the Great adopted Christianity (from Constantinople).

When Rurik arrived in the region in the middle of the 9th century he was only interested in trade - sourcing commodities (slaves were the biggest earners) from the area for sale in Constantinople. It took a couple of generations for them to settle down and slavicise their names in the early 10th century. By then 2 major centres emerged - Novgorod and Kiev. These states could be considered "proto-states". Although both aspired to be total ruler of all the Rus lands, that did not really happen until Vladimir came along. He adopted Christianity as a way to overcome local loyalties and build a larger loyalty to himself. The church also had the mechanisms of administration so the larger state could be managed better than the proto-states could.

So the stimilators toward a formal state were Vikings, but by the time of Vladimir they had fully slavicised.

This state - Kievan Rus - benefited from its strong early rulers in Vladimir and Jaroslav, but after these two the momentum waned and internecine struggles re-emerged and Kievan Rus declined, helped along the way by a decline in economic fortunes in Constantinople. By 1180 Kiev had lost its wealth and prestige so much that the new nominal Grand Prince did not bother moving to Kiev. By the time of the Mogul invasions (1238) Kievan Rus had fragmented to over a dozen independent states. It was the regions beyond the forests that settled society could re-emerge after the Mongul invasions as the lands around Kiev were open to constant Tartar pillaging. A few astute decisions by the likes of Alexander Nevski and Ivan I saw the principality of Moscow take the prominent position among the Rus states not subject to Lithuania (largely present day Belarus and Ukraine) and by the late 15th century throw off the overlordship of the Tartars forever.

It was this division of lands between an independent rus state led by Moscow and the rus states subject to Lithuania that lead to the 3 russias of today. Belarus had a long history of engagement with the Lithuanians, whereas the Ukraine had a mixed history of an underpopulated region open to Tartar raids and exertion of other states, and that was repopulated under Polish cultural influences, both from colonisation and its own elites adopting Polish culture.

So Ancient Rus is the predecessor of all the 3 russias - Russia (Muskovy), Belarus and Ukraine. It was Muskovy that first achieved independence and the other 2 russias' attempts at statehood were stunted by their involvement with other states.
 
Mar 2019
24
Europe
Its not possible to talk of a formal Rus state before 988 when Valdimir the Great adopted Christianity (from Constantinople).

When Rurik arrived in the region in the middle of the 9th century he was only interested in trade - sourcing commodities (slaves were the biggest earners) from the area for sale in Constantinople. It took a couple of generations for them to settle down and slavicise their names in the early 10th century. By then 2 major centres emerged - Novgorod and Kiev. These states could be considered "proto-states". Although both aspired to be total ruler of all the Rus lands, that did not really happen until Vladimir came along. He adopted Christianity as a way to overcome local loyalties and build a larger loyalty to himself. The church also had the mechanisms of administration so the larger state could be managed better than the proto-states could.

So the stimilators toward a formal state were Vikings, but by the time of Vladimir they had fully slavicised.

This state - Kievan Rus - benefited from its strong early rulers in Vladimir and Jaroslav, but after these two the momentum waned and internecine struggles re-emerged and Kievan Rus declined, helped along the way by a decline in economic fortunes in Constantinople. By 1180 Kiev had lost its wealth and prestige so much that the new nominal Grand Prince did not bother moving to Kiev. By the time of the Mogul invasions (1238) Kievan Rus had fragmented to over a dozen independent states. It was the regions beyond the forests that settled society could re-emerge after the Mongul invasions as the lands around Kiev were open to constant Tartar pillaging. A few astute decisions by the likes of Alexander Nevski and Ivan I saw the principality of Moscow take the prominent position among the Rus states not subject to Lithuania (largely present day Belarus and Ukraine) and by the late 15th century throw off the overlordship of the Tartars forever.

It was this division of lands between an independent rus state led by Moscow and the rus states subject to Lithuania that lead to the 3 russias of today. Belarus had a long history of engagement with the Lithuanians, whereas the Ukraine had a mixed history of an underpopulated region open to Tartar raids and exertion of other states, and that was repopulated under Polish cultural influences, both from colonisation and its own elites adopting Polish culture.

So Ancient Rus is the predecessor of all the 3 russias - Russia (Muskovy), Belarus and Ukraine. It was Muskovy that first achieved independence and the other 2 russias' attempts at statehood were stunted by their involvement with other states.

How so?
The Rus state was formed before Christianization.
I mean what was Svyatoslav the Great doing then?
Actually, one could argue that the greatest period of Rus is before the adoption of Christianity.
No ruler of Rus (before and after) was greater than Svyatoslav.
 
Dec 2017
606
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Rus state was defined by Rurikid dynasty and the army of Varangians at the time when Vikings//Varangians pirated much of Europe from England to Constantinople and Kiev. Not by Christianity. Culture and writing came with Christianity to Rus. The origins of modern political Russian state are in Moscow principality that competws with Tver principality. Moscow principality won in the end as the Horde was helpining Muscovites, even letting them to collect taxes in neighbouring principalities. Novgorodian Republic with Veche tradition was destroyed by Mоscow army. The army of Moscow won a decisive victory in the Battle of Shelon River in July 1471, which severely limited Novgorod's freedom, although the city maintained its formal independence for the next seven years. Ivan III sent his army to take Novgorod. He destroyed the veche, tore down the Veche bell, the ancient symbol of participatory governance, civic society, and legal rights and destroyed the library and archives, thus ending the independence of Novgorod. Kiev (Ukraine), Polotsk (Belarus), Pskov principality. Poland also had Veche traditions. Moscow also had Veche until they became vassals of Horde inheriting centralised form of government with plenty of power vested in a single person. Something similar existed in Horde. Byzantium influenced greatly Rus culture, but the form of government was from Horde that served Muscovites greatly to become the dominant principality. Known Russian historian Yuri Pivovarov published several papers and gave numerous lectures on the subjecct,
Veche (vijeće, wiec) was a public council and one of the most ancient Slavic traditions which ruined the mighty Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. : Veche - Wikipedia
 
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Likes: Dir
Nov 2015
1,674
Kyiv
I always thought the modern Russian state formed around Moscow which was on the boundary of the Khanate of the Golden Horde. As Mongol power declined "Muscovy" expanded to include neighboring city states. It underwent significant expansion under Ivan III (reigned 1462-1505) to become the direct forerunner of the Russian Empire.


The light green is the territory added by Ivan III (Wikipedia)
And under Ivan IV (Ivan the Terrible) the greater part of the territory of the former Horde in which both of its capitals, Sarai-Batu and Sarai-Berke, became a part of the territory of the Moscow Tzardom.


At the same time, the Sarai diocese located in the capital of the Horde was transferred to Moscow. Now it is called the Krutitsy Diocese and has a very special status in the Moscow Church.

By the middle of the 17th century, the lands of the Horde with the most part of its population were right in the middle of the Moscow Tzardom.

The slogan Moscow is the Third Rome was popular in Russia in that time. I would say differently. Moscow is the Third Sarai.
 
Nov 2015
1,674
Kyiv
Dont see relevance in digging about long gone Slavic and non-Slavic tribes. The most important legacy from Rus is acception of Orthodxy, and clearly that makes Rus predecessor of Russia.
Russian Orthodoxy? First, Rus cannot be called unequivocally Orthodox. The formal division of the Christian church into "Orthodox" and "Catholic" occurred in 1054. This is the year of the death of the Grand Duke of Kiev Yaroslav the Wise. And the golden age of Rus. It took a long time to actually divide the Christian church. And I have never heard that the children of Yaroslav, like the children of another famous Grand Duke of Kiev Vladimir Monomakh when they married the "Catholic" princes and princesses were needed to be re-baptized into Catholics.

Not only that - the main Christian relic of Rus was the relics of St. Clement, Pope of Rome. They were kept in the Kiev Tithe Church - Десятинная церковь, destroyed by the Mongols in 1240. The real division of the church in the lands of Ukraine will occur much later - during the Counter-Reformation, when the Jesuits come here.

What was the Orthodox Church in the Moscow Tzardom? It was something special.
Interesting facts reached us:

First, until the 18th century, the Moscow church did not know a sermon from the pulpit. Can you imagine a Christian community where a priest does not read a sermon and does not carry the word of the Lord to his congregation? I cant

In fact, the Moscow Church only reproduced the Christian ritual, taking little care that the faith of the Lord was entrenched in the souls of believers.

As a result, few of the Muscovites knew even the only prayer that we inherited from Jesus himself — The Our Father. Instead, they usually prayed, endlessly uttering a mantra - Lord, have mercy on us, Lord, have mercy on us... Господи помилуй нас, господи помилуй нас, господи помилуй...

Muscovites usually did not allow their wives to go to church - except for large holidays. By the way, the well-to-do Muscovites had a female half of the house, where other men were denied entry.

Muscovites often went to church with a home icon and prayed to it placing the icon in the temple to the wall. And then they took it back home. If the saint on the icon did not please the believer, he could put the icon facing the wall at home. And even beat it with a whip a little bit. Usually they prayed not to the Lord God - not to Jehovah and Christ — but to a chain of saints of lower rank, chief among which was Saint Nicholas — the God Nikolka, and the Mother of God. All this was a little like monotheism.

Many rich Muscovites prayed in the small church they built for themselves in their yard. An interesting procedure of reading religious texts during church services was often practiced in Moscow churches. This is when the readers simultaneously - in chorus - read several different texts. It was impossible to understand the content of those texts for the believers.

Moscow priests sometimes were illiterate and they memorized all religious texts. The congregation had the right to beat their priests. According to the rule, before that it was necessary to remove the cap from the priest - and then it was possible to beat the priest with your fists. This was not considered a sin. And, finally, Russian priests were whipped for their sins in the city squares.

In 1649 Moscow Tsar Alexei Mikhailovich (the father of Peter the Great in the future) invited monks from Kiev to Moscow- the Kiev scribes - киевские книжники - who knew Greek, so that they could correct church texts that had a lot of confusion over the centuries. They corrected the texts in accordance with the Greek originals. And these monks from Kiev were horrified by the realities of the Moscow church and the ignorance of the Moscow priests.

And although the "Kiev scribes" later were condemned by the Moscow church Сouncil of 1690, their ideas became the impetus for the reformation of the Moscow church. And after this followed the political process. The kingdom of Moscow began to turn into the Russian Empire

In the early 18th century, Peter the Great abolished the Moscow Patriarchate. Which way that patriarchy appeared - it's a separate story. Peter replaced it with the Most Holy Synod — something of a religious ministry in his government. The Moscow Patriarchate was revived only in 1917 - in those days when the Bolsheviks carried out an armed coup and seized power in Russia

The Christian church in Russia was thoroughly discredited by the time and when the Bolsheviks staged a real pogrom on Russian churches, the Russian believers quite indifferently watched their atheistic sabbath.

When Stalin died, the Moscow patriarch held a solemn funeral service for this ghoul.

I hope it is now clearer why the Ukrainians so persistently sought the exit of their church from under the Moscow Patriarchate
 
Likes: macon
Nov 2015
1,674
Kyiv
Its not possible to talk of a formal Rus state before 988 when Valdimir the Great adopted Christianity (from Constantinople).

It was the regions beyond the forests that settled society could re-emerge after the Mongul invasions as the lands around Kiev were open to constant Tartar pillaging.
Before storming Kiev after a long siege during the big campaign of 1240, the Mongols conducted a small raid 1237-1238, during which almost all the cities of the Volga-Oka interfluve — that is, future Russia — were destroyed or heavily damaged. After this, the cities of Russia of the time there fell into decay.

In Rus itself the Mongols captured and destroyed in the same raid of the 1238 Vyshgorodnear Kiev and Pereyaslav, 100 kilometers south of the capital of Rus. And Kiev fell in 2 years during the second - much more solid raid.

Destruction of cities in Zalesie and Rus were great. Nevertheless, the first cities were revived and rebuilt not in Zalesye, but on the Ukrainian Right Bank - in the Galitsko-Volyn principality. And Muscovy was not the first to free itself from dependence on the Horde. The lands of Rus with Kiev, Pereyaslav and Chernigov in the middle of the 14th century became part of independent Lithuania. The Belarusian-Lithuanian state, which then became known as the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Rus and Zhemoits. And Shvarn Danilovich - the son of Galitsko-Volyn prince Danila - became the great prince of this great state in 1267.

And the lands of Russia of the time remained part of the Horde until 1480, when Ivan III became the first tzar of Russia. Before that, the Russians called the Horde khans their tzars. De facto Muscovy was an integral part of the Horde for almost 3 century.

The lands of the Russia of the time were in no way more secure than the lands of the Ukraine. Though Russia became part of the Horde, the Horde made a whole series of campaigns on these lands at the end of the 13th century and in the 14th century. I can list them here if you are interested. In addition, the Moscow princes who received a label from the Horde for the right to be confirmed as a prince, constantly used the Mongolian cavalry in internecine strife.

As far as I know, in the territory of Ukraine after the invasion of Batu Mongol raids were several times less than in Russia at the end of the 13th and in the 14th century. And Danila Galitsky traveled to the Horde only once - in 1245 to get yarlik from the Horde khan. And the Russian princes went to the Horde for yarlik dozens of times, and dependence on the Horde in then-Russia cannot even be compared with Ukraine.
 
Likes: macon
Dec 2017
606
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Known Russian historian on Yuri Pivovarov (академик РАН) on movie Horde and Horde heritage of Russian empire and modern Russia. He has many lectures and articles on the subject.

PS IMO The name Jochi Ulus would suit modern Russian state better.




 

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