Is the UK a ghost of its former glory?

Larrey

Ad Honorem
Sep 2011
4,841
Not really, if one takes the action at Mers-el-Kebir in connection with other actions at the time with regard to French ships, and the fact that the attack was only to be undertaken of the negotiations failed (Churchill would have much preferred that the ships withdrew to the Caribbean as they were given the choice of doing). It was a ruthless action but it is in fact ludicrous to suppose that Churchill specifically ordered it to impress the Americans, and wouldn't have done it otherwise. So easy to ascribe low motives to people with hindsight when they have to make difficult decisons in time of war. It would be less irritating, though, if the people who do it were not as selective in their choice of targets.
Roosevelt certainly concluded Churchill was a bully. Mort importantly he was a fighter, as Roosevelt also observed.
 
Aug 2010
15,104
Welsh Marches
Yes, indeed, but that was just about the only immediate beneficial consequence of his action, and he would hardly have undertaken it just to achieve that aim.
 

royal744

Ad Honorem
Jul 2013
9,804
San Antonio, Tx
This thread is curious.

Now in EU France is annoying as UK ... in Italy we are thinking that after enjoying a "Britain free EU" we will have to deal with "Great France"!

But this is a different matter.

The point is that with two new giant [and honestly a bit ridiculous, with the sky jump and those grotesque huge isles ... how many admirals are there on board?] carriers, we are seeing the Brits talking big about their return as interstellar power.

It's clear that two carriers like those [but not CATOBAR, so interoperability is a dream] give something more to a Navy, but ... could UK conquer India again?

No, it couldn't. The enormous Indian Air Force with their tremendous coastal defenses would force those carriers to escape and the RN to withdraw ... Sure India cannot [today, may be tomorrow ...] conquer UK making it an Indian colony, but it's a joke to imagine that the British Royal Navy is a threat for India ...
This is rather silly, isn’t it? Britain, I’m sure, has no interest, now or in the near or far future, of ever attacking India. What is the point of this?
 

royal744

Ad Honorem
Jul 2013
9,804
San Antonio, Tx
By how is Perceived Uk , to me at least , seems is no longer a power in the world , it barely has a cultural identity anymore as many of the people are now from elsewhere in the world mostly from pakistan or other former protectorates and probably will become a fully muslim country in future.
Not only “highly unlikely”, but “extremely” unlikely.
 

royal744

Ad Honorem
Jul 2013
9,804
San Antonio, Tx
UK has passed from global power to regional power.

London keeps a global importance [like Paris] because of its nuclear arsenal and its permanent seat in the UN Security Council [with veto right].

At economical, geopolitical and military level, today only USA and China can be defined "global powers". Russia is at an intermediate level: more than a regional power, less than a global power ... I would call it a continental power.
When China actually performs like a “global” power, we can start calling it one. Economic power is important here and China apparently has that and then some, but military power with a global reach is a bit of an overreach for the time being. I’m pretty sure that’ll change, but it will take time.
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
31,335
T'Republic of Yorkshire
The thing is that it wasn't the easier option for the French to sail to Britain, which would have been an act of direct mutiny, it would have been much easier for them to sail to another French colony which was under Vichy rule. If Admiral Darlan had been present and had offered to take his fleet to Britain, I'm sure that Admiral Somerville would have jumped at the offer! Seriously, I thinking you are working under a misapprehension on this point, I have read quite a bit on this matter and I have never seen any historian suggest that this a realistic option for the British to put forward, let alone that it was deliberately withheld, it had already been rejected by the French colonial authorities in previous negotiations.
I take it the north African colonies hadn't declared their allegiances to the FF or the Vichy government at this point (if the FF even existed by then), but had he been inclined to do so, Darlan could have already set sail for the Caribbean on his own initiative the way Surcouf did.
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
31,335
T'Republic of Yorkshire
By how is Perceived Uk , to me at least , seems is no longer a power in the world , it barely has a cultural identity anymore as many of the people are now from elsewhere in the world mostly from pakistan or other former protectorates and probably will become a fully muslim country in future.
There's frankly only one way to describe this statement - idiotic drivel, written by someone who has no idea what the UK is really like.
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,384
Sydney
They WERE in a French territory who had a whole sea between them and the panzers
the point of putting them an ocean apart doesn't compute
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,384
Sydney
On the OP
I wish to commend Rajeev post ,beside sticking to the subject , he raise the issue of "glory" in an universal way
what was remarkable in the dismantling of the British Empire was that as such things goes , the blood price was rather low

"The right questions are: What is the legacy of British Empire to the world civilization at large? And what role does it want to play in future?"
 

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