Is the US better of being split?

Status
Closed
Jul 2016
9,327
USA
#21
What percentage of the California and Texas Economy is dependent on the Inter-state commerce vs. International commerce negotiated and regulated by the Federal government ?
Cannot really compare that. Everything is set up now for being included as a state. Going independent would change everything. Frankly having a strong military would be more an issue to keep trade going than anything else. Without it nobody will be hesitant to blackmail those new nations with poor trade deals. Or use force to shut down their economy. 2-3 small strikes on some key power plants and most of California is in the stone age for the foreseeable future.
 
Jan 2010
4,419
Atlanta, Georgia USA
#22
The articles you cite mostly center on people moving for economic reasons. I was trying to make the point that race riots and other social unrest do not drive people out of cities and into suburbs like they used to.
And that’s a very good thing.

A political cartoon “From the Left” in our local newspaper this morning pictured two autos on the California border; one luxury car labelled “rich” entering the state and one labelled “middle class” exiting the state. I know that’s not entirely accurate as my daughter and her family, whom I would not characterize as rich, just moved there from Wisconsin.
 
Oct 2010
5,094
DC
#23
Cannot really compare that. Everything is set up now for being included as a state. Going independent would change everything. Frankly having a strong military would be more an issue to keep trade going than anything else. Without it nobody will be hesitant to blackmail those new nations with poor trade deals. Or use force to shut down their economy. 2-3 small strikes on some key power plants and most of California is in the stone age for the foreseeable future.
That was the point I was making, strong economy does not come from a vacuum, I wonder what currency they would use ?

California now has the world's 5th largest economy

I am not good with economy evaluation, does large = good/healthy ?

And that’s a very good thing.

A political cartoon “From the Left” in our local newspaper this morning pictured two autos on the California border; one luxury car labelled “rich” entering the state and one labelled “middle class” exiting the state. I know that’s not entirely accurate as my daughter and her family, whom I would not characterize as rich, just moved there from Wisconsin.
I do not quite get the point of said cartoon
 
Jan 2010
4,419
Atlanta, Georgia USA
#24
That was the point I was making, strong economy does not come from a vacuum, I wonder what currency they would use ?

California now has the world's 5th largest economy

I am not good with economy evaluation, does large = good/healthy ?


I do not quite get the point of said cartoon
The point I took from it was that it is difficult to live on a middle class income in California so the middle class are leaving. I was responding to Chlodio’s post on economic migration.
 
Jul 2016
9,327
USA
#25
That was the point I was making, strong economy does not come from a vacuum, I wonder what currency they would use ?

California now has the world's 5th largest economy

I am not good with economy evaluation, does large = good/healthy ?
It has the potential to mean they could be self sustainable. But only if they those companies the current state has now would continue to possess a product that would be in high demand after independence. Not just high demand, but would they be able to compete globally? Export? Make beneficial trade deals? Would they have the ability to defend themselves to prevent another nation state screwing them over? Will they have a navy to protect their ships? An army to protect their borders? A national police force to protect their internal infrastructure?

California's biggest industries are agriculture, controlled largely by that are orientated right politically (aka Nazis), so if they try to go independent, with a leftist govt (aka the Saviors of humanity), they will surely lose their farmers. Since farming isn't exactly an easy job to learn, it'll be years before they can replace them, if they can.

Entertainment out of Hollywood is huge, and they'll lose a lot of that after California stops being a nice place to live.

Tech will be okay as long as they can keep power on in the cities, and keep standard of living up, or else the workers will go somewhere else. But they wont have all the energy they need, a lot comes from out of state, so they'll at least partially collapse.

And that doesn't even factor in defense. These new states are going to be alone. They'll have a significant portion of their own population who will violently disagree with the majority politics of the newly independent govt. There will be outside nations who will decide to throw every stick in every spoke they can find to cause mayhem so they fail. There might even be direct military attacks. Should the remaining USA decide to attack California and bomb its capitol building, can they stop it from happening? Who are they going to go to to protect them? The UN (lol)? Ally with China? With Russia? What will that cost?
 
Aug 2014
4,473
Australia
#26
California imports a minimum of 1/4 of its energy from neighboring states. Without that energy, the big cities collapse. They're also very water dependent on rivers that originate from out of state (the Colorado River being one of the most important). But then again, a good chunk of the water goes to agriculture, which would collapse should California ever try to become independent. Check out political affiliations of farmers, compare that to the urban areas and state govt. It'll be like Zimbabwe all over again.
So what? Independent doesn't mean isolated. Texas and California can continue to trade and co-operate with other states like they do now.
 
Jul 2016
9,327
USA
#27
So what? Independent doesn't mean isolated. Texas and California can continue to trade and co-operate with other states like they do now.
That is not how it works on this side of the planet. An independent California or Texas would be foreign countries, which means trade with the USA would be dictated by their respective state depts making trade deals before it would be fully authorized, unless some sort of NAFTA level trade deal could be made that opened it without restrictions or oversight.

And we're not talking about a country like China that needs to import food and fuel. For energy, California is literally routing power through cables from neighboring states. Should they secede from the union and get away with it, that ends unless they somehow negotiate that with the USA, who is the deciding factor, not the individual states.
 

Willempie

Ad Honorem
Jul 2015
5,106
Netherlands
#29
Wouldn't it be wiser if some states themselves split? NY and California have big areas that are basically ruled by NYC/LA/SF. It is also a notion I heard a lot in WA, when some measure was pushed through by "those hipsters in Seattle"
 

Chlodio

Ad Honorem
Aug 2016
3,934
Dispargum
#30
Wouldn't it be wiser if some states themselves split? NY and California have big areas that are basically ruled by NYC/LA/SF. It is also a notion I heard a lot in WA, when some measure was pushed through by "those hipsters in Seattle"
Yes, the state boundaries have little to do with the current alignment of voters' loyalty to political parties. It's what I was saying earlier about the divide not being by states but being urban vs rural. The current alignment of parties and issues is not necessarily permanent. There were times in the past when Democrats controlled the farm vote and Republicans controlled the cities. If we were to realign the political boundaries, there's no guarantee that at some point in the future parties and issues will not realign making the boundaries obsolete again. I actually think its good that political districts be as diverse as possible. It encourages people to find common ground. One (not the only) source of today's political gridlock is that political districts are so homogeneous that each district is only interested in a few issues leaving too little common ground with other districts and no incentive for representatives to cooperate.
 
Status
Closed