Is US society more violent than Western Europe?

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Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
35,188
T'Republic of Yorkshire
Gang culture, is that something common in Western Europe?
I can't speak for any other country, but it does exist in the UK, particularly in London. It's not that UK gang culture is less violent than US gang culture, but the violence tends to be knife and acid attack related these days, although you get the occasional shooting. A lot of it is also physical assaults, hich really only hit the headlines when it spills over into gentrified areas.

What we don't really get, since 1997 and Dunblane anyway, is mass shootings, which, in all fairness to the US, probably get more than their fair share of headlines compared to the number of deaths vs suicides o gang violence.
 

aggienation

Ad Honorem
Jul 2016
9,738
USA
I can't speak for any other country, but it does exist in the UK, particularly in London. It's not that UK gang culture is less violent than US gang culture, but the violence tends to be knife and acid attack related these days, although you get the occasional shooting. A lot of it is also physical assaults, hich really only hit the headlines when it spills over into gentrified areas.

What we don't really get, since 1997 and Dunblane anyway, is mass shootings, which, in all fairness to the US, probably get more than their fair share of headlines compared to the number of deaths vs suicides o gang violence.
I'm not happy about the mass shootings. Unfortunately, its just all too popular in the US, made worse by the amount of coverage the media gives to it, which ends up giving the killer fame, which most of them want. Couple that with the websites that most of them all visit to chat, where they not only glorify other mass killers but discuss ways to up their kill counts, its a sad fact of life now that its a problem that will only end up getting worse. The losers of society, who hate their fellow man, who any other time in history would either just kill themselves or maybe take out one or two people, now have a way of gaining what they see as eternal fame and the ultimate payback against the society they truly hate by killing large amounts of innocents. Get rid of the assault rifles, they'll use pistols or shotguns. Get rid of them, they'll use cars or bombs. The weapons are just means, the goal is body count.

China has a problem with it too. Knife attacks against children by deranged and angry adults who just want to kill something before they die.
 
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Iraq Bruin

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
5,195
DC
Glad you brought up suicide, which is actually one of the big problems of crime statistics, especially those involving guns. In the US, suicides with firearms are included in the overall number numbers for gun deaths, which dwarf homicides and murders. Many other countries who provide statistics on firearm violence do not include suicides in the number, hence theirs are much lower.

By and large, men use more direct and successful ways to commit suicide than women, and in places where access to firearms isn't restricted, their use is going to naturally be high. There is a gun range in town that rents out pistols to visitors. About once a year, since its been open, somebody goes there, rents a pistol and buys a box of ammo, goes onto the range and blows their brains out. Its common enough the store has a protocol for it. Close the store, send most employees home that didn't witness it, as soon as the cops finish with witnesses and EMT leave with the body they hire a cleaning service to clean up the scene, and then they reopen the next day like nothing happened. Most foreign countries that have increased gun restrictions, often to the point they're nearly impossible to find unless one is a criminal or terrorist (at which point they're not hard to find), male suicides are more often done by hanging, jumping off tall structures, etc.

Take the US crime rate, especially the murder rate. Remove the numbers from Chicago, Detroit, Atlanta, Washington DC. Suddenly the US is one of the safest places in the world. The US doesn't have a crime problem. It has a city problem.
Add Baltimore and St. Louis.
Imagine if all these cities had a Rudy Giuliani as a mayor.

Unhealthy for someone outside the US maybe, but its purely opinion to label it as unhealthy, as I could just as easily say its unhealthy to not possess guns, because then one is completely reliant on an uncaring govt for all protection.

Either way, if simply numbers of guns are the cause of crime, rural America would be a shooting gallery, as they possess most of the guns. But that's not the case, its the cities causing the massive death tolls. And I'm not talking about the gentrified portions full of trust fund hipsters. I'm talking about the neighborhoods where a typical summer weekend puts a dozen corpses in the morgue. Areas full of crips, bloods, vice lords, latin kings, etc.

Gang culture, is that something common in Western Europe?

Interview with Vicelord Gang Member in Chicago
What we have in the USA is "not my problem" culture and a "not my fault" culture; Combine that with more focus of taking money from other people and vilifying police than on social causes of high crimes and dangerous confrontations and the solution becomes non-existent.
 

aggienation

Ad Honorem
Jul 2016
9,738
USA
Add Baltimore and St. Louis.
Imagine if all these cities had a Rudy Giuliani as a mayor.
A lot of other cities tried Broken Windows police theory and it didn't work. It wasn't just Giuliani that cleaned up the city, his chief of police had a lot to do with it too. His time also coincided with a nation wide reduction in gang crime as the 80-90s crack epidemic was dying down, so he was able to get some credit for that.

Most of the big cities with massive murder rates are more focused on a technique called CompStat, which is more results focused, and quantifiable. You analyze where and how and when and why crimes are happening, by using numbers, and then tackle those. If you reduce those numbers, you reduce the overall crime rate. Unfortunately, that didn't work all that well.

If you watch the tv show The Wire (which is one of the best shows ever put on television, and does a fantastic job showing why inner cities are messed up and will continue to be messed up), the creators of the show, one a former Baltimore PD homicide detective, the other a former reporter from the Baltimore Sun newspaper who handled the crime beat, both of them hated CompStat and really showcased its flaws in the show.

What we have in the USA is "not my problem" culture and a "not my fault" culture; Combine that with more focus of taking money from other people and vilifying police than on social causes of high crimes and dangerous confrontations
Wholeheartedly agree. Especially a few years ago, when nobody would remotely mention the ridiculously out of control black on black crime rates, every single time a cop pulled the trigger on someone black if they didn't indict, even on no actual evidence whatsoever of malfeasance, there was the very real threat that the city would face a riot. Couple that with various city politicians looking to win votes from the people by attempting to play the role of "People's Champion" who would make utterly ridiculous criminal charges, like in Baltimore or St Louis, that had no hope whatsoever of a successful prosecution because they were based on nothing more than feelings, which further fanned the flames in the court of public outrage, while also telling law enforcement nation wide that their employers would hang them out to dry the first opportunity they had.

So couple not remotely tackling the problem at hang, media and politicians making the problems worse by encouraging the idea that its racially based, along with alienation of the very individuals responsible for curbing crime, and you have some further reason inner city crime in the US is out of control and will likely only get much worse.
 
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Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
35,188
T'Republic of Yorkshire
Couple that with the websites that most of them all visit to chat
There is or was a group on reddit for "incels" (involuntary celibates" that a few of these mass killers frequented.

And THAT, people, is why we have moderation on Historum!
 

aggienation

Ad Honorem
Jul 2016
9,738
USA
There is or was a group on reddit for "incels" (involuntary celibates" that a few of these mass killers frequented.

And THAT, people, is why we have moderation on Historum!
Its terrifying to realize how many of those school shooters visit the same websites. I'm not saying that 4chan is causing mass killings. But there is definitely a correlation factor that needs to be discussed. Same with the whole incel movement.

And I've seen war. I've seen some of the most horrible stuff humans can do to one another. I can live with all that. But no amount of drugs or booze can wipe what I saw the one time I went on 4chan /b/.

Such an absolutely disturbing website. I can only imagine how messed up someone becomes when they spend most of their waking hours on that website or others like it.
 

Kevinmeath

Ad Honoris
May 2011
14,020
Navan, Ireland
..................

Take the US crime rate, especially the murder rate. Remove the numbers from Chicago, Detroit, Atlanta, Washington DC. Suddenly the US is one of the safest places in the world. The US doesn't have a crime problem. It has a city problem.
And if you took London, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow etc out of British figures would it have the same effect?
 

macon

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
4,074
Slovenia, EU
Every idiot can't buy a gun in EU so easily as in USA. Someone needs social skills to get a gun in EU while American idiot (when he explodes in frustration) is got a gun to "solve" his problems with cruel humanity.

Switzerland is got military weapons at homes. Tank crews live near garages and so on, closest system is Israeli one. A big majority of their men are army conscripts.
 

Kevinmeath

Ad Honoris
May 2011
14,020
Navan, Ireland
Unhealthy for someone outside the US maybe, but its purely opinion to label it as unhealthy,
Yep just my opinion but I find the love of guns to be unhealthy , their glorification, the butch macho non sense, the dismissal of any one or any country that doesn't share 'Americas' love of guns to be a lesser person or country.

The view that guns are not a perhaps necessary but dangerous tool but some how an extension of someone's manhood to be rather pathetic and rather unhealthy.


as I could just as easily say its unhealthy to not possess guns,
How? , I live in rural Ireland I almost all crime statitics its comes out as one of the most peaceful, crime free places in the world, why would I need a gun?

because then one is completely reliant on an uncaring govt for all protection.
Fortunately I don't have your negative view of the powers of law and order

Either way, if simply numbers of guns are the cause of crime, rural America would be a shooting gallery, .............................................................
Sorry where in this post or on this or any other forum have I advocated that America should have no guns?

I actually don't understand why the debate is always the simplistic guns or no guns ?

I don't think it wise for Ireland or the UK etc to adopt American gun laws but equally I don't see why the US should adopt European laws, in fact both courses would be very unwise.

I don't think guns are the problem as such-- other countries have guns eg Canada and Australia (more controlled than the USA) and even where I live most farmers will have shot guns. However they don't seem to have the problems the US has, I agree with the point about cities and gangs (although that applies to Europe as well) but the 'mass shooting'? they are not gang related-- there is something else at play.
 
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macon

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
4,074
Slovenia, EU
I liked someone's thought: "An armed society makes a polite society."
 
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