Is US society more violent than Western Europe?

Status
Closed
Jul 2016
8,472
USA
#41
Yep just my opinion but I find the love of guns to be unhealthy , their glorification, the butch macho non sense, the dismissal of any one or any country that doesn't share 'Americas' love of guns to be a lesser person or country.

The view that guns are not a perhaps necessary but dangerous tool but some how an extension of someone's manhood to be rather pathetic and rather unhealthy.
Ahh, the old extension of manhood argument. LOL, because nothing says manhood like having to completely rely on strangers to protect you. "You sir, who can fully protect yourself against all threats, only carry a gun because your self esteem. Meanwhile, I shall rely on law and order to save me! Because I'm a real man!"

That doesn't sound right at all...

How , I live in rural Ireland I almost all crime statitics its comes out as one of the most peaceful, crime free places in the world, why would I need a gun?
Ask the British why they didn't want the Irish to have guns.

Also, before you (like many other Europeans) toot your utopia horn, you better be sure Ireland actually is low crime.

Crime levels 56.68 Ranked 29th. 2% more than US
United States 55.84 Ranked 30th.
Crime Stats: compare key data on Ireland & United States

Fortunately I don't have your negative view of the powers of law and order
You're utterly reliant on law enforcement for your protection, so I should think you don't hold them in negative view. I should hope you are a true believer in them saving you whenever you need help, or life would be quite stressful.

But here in the United States, and this has been upheld by the Supreme Court, neither police nor any other govt service actually has a legal responsibility to protect any citizens. You can be getting raped and strangled right in front of a cop and they don't have to do anything besides arrest the perpetrator after (if they feel like it), and the worst that happens to them is they get fired for violating dept policy. Because I know that, and because I'm friends and related to many police officers, and I know how they do their jobs and how much they actually care about helping others, and because I take personal responsibility seriously, I arm myself. Maybe just a pocket knife. Maybe I'll carry a little seven shot pocket pistol. Maybe a full size Glock. I don't need to call the cops when I hear a bump in the night, or realize I'm being tailed as I walk my dog at night. I can and will take care of myself.

Sorry where in this post or on this or any other forum have I advocated that America should have no guns?

I actually don't understand why the debate is always the simplistic guns or no guns ?

I don't think it wise for Ireland or the UK etc to adopt American gun laws but equally I don't see why the US should adopt European laws, in fact both courses would be very unwise.
If you make anti-gun references to the US, going so far as to equate them with manhood (lol, tell that to the IRA, who you owe your freedom to), you can't bail out afterwards when someone brings up firearms in America, where their ownership is highest, and the flip flop nature that the areas with the lowest amount of firearms, the strictest firearm laws, have crime levels that are some of the worst in the worst.

I don't think guns are the problem as such-- other countries have guns eg Canada and Australia (more controlled than the USA) and even where I love most farmers will have shot guns. However they don't seem to have the problems the US has, I agree with the point about cities and gangs (although that applies to Europe as well) but the 'mass shooting'? they are not gang related-- there is something else at play
Do you even bother learning about any of this before posting your opinion? Hint: Why is Australia's gun laws so restrictive? What event triggered that? Did that stop massacres from happening further?

Also, Canada list is here.
 

deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
13,534
Europix
#42
But here in the United States, and this has been upheld by the Supreme Court, neither police nor any other govt service actually has a legal responsibility to protect any citizens. You can be getting raped and strangled right in front of a cop and they don't have to do anything besides arrest the perpetrator after (if they feel like it), and the worst that happens to them is they get fired for violating dept policy. ...
Thank You for the info, I didn't knew that. It explains and justifies:

...Because I know that, and because I'm friends and related to many police officers, and I know how they do their jobs and how much they actually care about helping others, and because I take personal responsibility seriously, I arm myself. Maybe just a pocket knife. Maybe I'll carry a little seven shot pocket pistol. Maybe a full size Glock. I don't need to call the cops when I hear a bump in the night, or realize I'm being tailed as I walk my dog at night. I can and will take care of myself.
Nevertheless, it's totally absurd.
 
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Kevinmeath

Ad Honoris
May 2011
13,738
Navan, Ireland
#43
Ahh, the old extension of manhood argument. LOL, .
LOL, Ahh, not sure I even made that argument-- I said that there was perhaps an unhealthy gun culture in the USA-- where too many people (it appears such as yourself view their guns as an extensions of their manhood and seem to have a love of violence) and not view guns as simp,ly a tool to be treated with respect.


because nothing says manhood like having to completely rely on strangers to protect you..
Who says that?

"You sir, who can fully protect yourself against all threats, only carry a gun because your self esteem. Meanwhile, I shall rely on law and order to save me! Because I'm a real man!".
Making up your own quotes to refute-- oh dear.

That doesn't sound right at all....
No its sound silly but you posted it.




Ask the British why they didn't want the Irish to have guns..
Please you know very little about Irish history and its not relevant and the Irish Republic makes its own gun laws.

Also, before you (like many other Europeans) toot your utopia horn, .
I never have and if you even bothered to read my post I said it would be wrong for America to adopt European guns laws an vica versa.

Infact the poster who 'toot your utopia horn' is you and the USA, I am trying to have a more measured discussion which obviously isn't going to happen with you.


you better be sure Ireland actually is low crime..
Yes it is

Crime levels 56.68 Ranked 29th. 2% more than US
United States 55.84 Ranked 30th.
Crime Stats: compare key data on Ireland & United States.
Rather dubious to compare statistics directly and actually doesn't support your argument? murder rate 11 times Irelands?



You're utterly reliant on law enforcement for your protection, so I should think you don't hold them in negative view. I should hope you are a true believer in them saving you whenever you need help, or life would be quite stressful..
Why am I utterly reliant? because I have not got a gun? grow up.

But here in the United States, and this has been upheld by the Supreme Court,.
That's part of the government isn't it?


neither police nor any other govt service actually has a legal responsibility to protect any citizens. You can be getting raped and strangled right in front of a cop and they don't have to do anything besides arrest the perpetrator after (if they feel like it), and the worst that happens to them is they get fired for violating dept policy. Because I know that, and because I'm friends and related to many police officers, and I know how they do their jobs and how much they actually care about helping others, and because I take personal responsibility seriously, I arm myself. Maybe just a pocket knife. Maybe I'll carry a little seven shot pocket pistol. Maybe a full size Glock. I don't need to call the cops when I hear a bump in the night, or realize I'm being tailed as I walk my dog at night. I can and will take care of myself..
So anyone who hasn't got a gun can not take care of themselves? is some how lesser? oh dear.



If you make anti-gun references to the US, going so far as to equate them with manhood .
Ok you equate your manhood with your guns ok that's you but the post your quoting is where I asked you to point out where I hve ever advocated that the USA should not have guns? -- you can not because I haven't so instead you shoot off at a tangent.

(lol, tell that to the IRA, who you owe your freedom to),.
I don't owe my freedom to them thank very much.

you can't bail out afterwards when someone brings up firearms in America, where their ownership is highest, and the flip flop nature that the areas with the lowest amount of firearms, the strictest firearm laws, have crime levels that are some of the worst in the worst..
I never did any of this -- your simply making it up.



Do you even bother learning about any of this before posting your opinion?.
You don't-- you don't even seem to read the posts you reply to.

Hint: Why is Australia's gun laws so restrictive? What event triggered that? Did that stop massacres from happening further?

Also, Canada list is here .
Who said gun crime didn't exist in other countries?

If you want to discuss fine but please just don't make up arguments and rant.
 
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Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
32,152
T'Republic of Yorkshire
#44
Britain has a largely urbanised population, which has culturally been ingrained to trust law enforcement t [rpvide protection. Our police officers are not armed, at least in mainland Beirain, I'm not sure about the RUC. And for the most part, that functions well in Britain, since the police can respond fairly quickly in most places (government funding cuts notwithstanding). This is being eroded though, with some people calling for the police to be armed in the face of terrorism threats, but the only place you regularly see armed officers in England is around Westminster. We have armed response units which are called out when needed, and this seems to work.

The USA , Canada and Australia are different. They are much larger countries with much more rural, where the nearest law enforcement could be hours or even days away.

There is no point in comparing the culture between different countries. In Japan, the police and yakuza are armed, but neither side really uses their guns - the police because it results in massive paperwork every time a gun is discharged, and the yakuza because shooting tends to bring the entire local police force down on their heads, and they prefer to get on with their extortion rackets and smuggling in peace. There are of course, some exceptions and some yakuza gangs are notorious for their viokence.
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
#47
I liked someone's thought: "An armed society makes a polite society."
Really

Judging by the US ,with more guns than people, there is an unfortunate side effect; an obscene number of gun related deaths. (compared with countries with strict gun control, such as Australia and Japan)

From where I sit having a well armed civilian population means an aweful lot of dead civilians.

I learned about firearms in the army; Infantry X medic. Rated marksman with 7.62 rifle. Also trained with; F11 sub machine gun, Armalite, Bren gun, Karl Gustav anti tank, M60 hand grenade. Civilians with guns terrify me. Most of those I've seen with guns are far too ignorant and just plain stupid be trusted anywhere near any kind of projectile weapon.

Of course, I may be absolutely wrong, and the vast majority of US gun owners have actually completed extensive training in gun safety and use. Learning from a gun owning relative /friend doesn't count unless that person is an accredited trainer.

Can't think of anything else to say which won't get me banned :oops:
 
Likes: Belgarion

Kevinmeath

Ad Honoris
May 2011
13,738
Navan, Ireland
#49
You didn't? Than how come that comment you're now saying you didn't make is in quotation marks? Maybe because I copy and pasted it from your post.

But its nota nd I didn't -- I said that the idea that a gun is an extension of someones manhood is an unhealthy foolish idea , you seem to disagree., that's your opinion and you are entitiled to it.

If you bothered to read the post I also went on to say that the USA shouldn't adopt European gun laws and also that guns were not the problem as such but rather a 'unhealthy' attitude towards them is.

I could say the same about Ireland and cars with young males driving too fast and stupidly in a macho culture to such an extent that the most likely cause of death in their age group is RTA -- does that mean I want to ban all cars?

Sorry ,and I realise you struggle with people having different opinions to you, but I find the notion that anyone who doesn't own a gun (especially in no gun societies such as Europe) to be a lesser person than an American who does to be a rather foolish argument and for them to be a lesser man-- well that's just pathetic.
 
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