Japan-China ww2

Mandate of Heaven

Ad Honorem
Jul 2010
6,851
Not sure what it is
That picture is a compilation of the total weapons shipped to China under Lend-Lease. I will translate the source at the bottom for you. It says Second Historical Archives of China, catalogue No. 774. Document number was obscured by the ad picture. If you are interested, you can perhaps pursue the matter here: http://www.shac.net.cn/. You can navigate to the English version at the top right corner.

Anybody can be a witness. But you need to have a reliable witness for your claim to count. Hitler could also be a witness when it comes to Jews in Germany in the 30's.
 
Sep 2010
112
Hanzhong
By that logic we have to ignore much of sources from history due to the fact that they are biased.

As a historian you should look at the primary sources and acknowledge their bias, though recognize they are primary sources. A journalist, biographer, writer does not cease to be a reliable witness due to his bias. Maybe if he made crazy incorrect claims, but his factual claims are correct only his opinions make it biased.

If the picture was the total shipped to China then it wouldn't include those given to the British as they were not in China. Maybe if it was the total shipped to East Asia you could deduct those.

Out of curiousity, where did the Chinese get the numbers? They have no way of knowing this. Frankly, I'm always wary about sources coming directly from China post Communist victory.
 

Mandate of Heaven

Ad Honorem
Jul 2010
6,851
Not sure what it is
If the picture was the total shipped to China then it wouldn't include those given to the British as they were not in China. Maybe if it was the total shipped to East Asia you could deduct those.

Out of curiousity, where did the Chinese get the numbers? They have no way of knowing this. Frankly, I'm always wary about sources coming directly from China post Communist victory.
I spoke of reliable witnesses. Most historians use reliable witnesses. Edgar Snow was as reliable in regard to Chinese as Hitler was to the Jews.

You must not know bureaucracy much. The weapons were given to the British to India by Stilwell, who was in charge of distributing weapons sent to China. The source clearly indicated shipment to China, but I guess you can always use your imagination to embelish your argument.:)

And what do you mean where the Chinese get the numbers? How can they not know the number of weapons promised shipped to them (although nominally)? Moreover, in bureaucracy there were always paper trails they can follow.

P.S. You can be as skeptical as you want.
 
Sep 2010
112
Hanzhong
So I'm assuming it's from the Taiwanese then?

Just look at my last post in regards to your comment about reliable witnesses and Edgar Snow. Nothing about him makes him unreliable.

Really, look at my last post about the to China aspect. Again you said it clearly says to China, and not to East Asia and then you claim that these numbers are higher than the actual numbers due to some being given to the British, who were not in China. To me it sounds like you are using imagination to lower the numbers.
 

Mandate of Heaven

Ad Honorem
Jul 2010
6,851
Not sure what it is
Only Taiwanese are reliable? Edgar Snow was very closely associated with the CCP, so he was not reliable?

Really, people look at much more than just your posts. The following is why people think it's a biased account.

Recent scholarship also demonstrates that Snow submitted the transcripts of his interviews to be edited and approved by Party officials and critics charge that changes in the American edition were made in response to the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_the_United_States"]Communist Party of the United States[/ame].

If you think someone nicknamed "Vinegar Joe" was a robot that did simply what he was told, then there is no point discussing with you anymore.
 
Sep 2010
112
Hanzhong
I'm having a hard time following where you go with discussions.

Where did I say only the Taiwanese are reliable? That's completely off-the wall.

Your statements about Snow say both sides of the coin, so I don't even know what to think of them.

I never said RSOC was not biased. In fact, I conceided it was. I pointed out that as a historian you are supposed to like at all primary sources, regardless of bias. While looking at them you most definately keep bias in mind, but you don't disregard a source and call it unreliable due to bias unless it is spoutting nonsense.
 
Sep 2010
57
...
How did Japan woop China so easily? Its crazy how many times CHina has been conquered. I dont see why ppl doubt the USA cant do it in this day in age.
In the initial phase I guess... China and Japan had been fighting before the invasion of Poland....

Sure is crazy how many times China has been conquered, and how many dynasties came and went after one another.

Even crazier to think just how the country emerged 2000 years now still holding on to most of its heartland....

Can USA woop China as easily as Japan?? Dunno. The course of invasion might repeat itself again with the easy conquest of Shang-hai and Beijing etc. Then getting bogged down in mid-China around Sichuan province....
 
Sep 2010
112
Hanzhong
True, but Sichuan is the far extremity of China proper. If a nation conquered to there they'd have conquered everything that matters.
 

Mandate of Heaven

Ad Honorem
Jul 2010
6,851
Not sure what it is
In the initial phase I guess... China and Japan had been fighting before the invasion of Poland....

Sure is crazy how many times China has been conquered, and how many dynasties came and went after one another.

Even crazier to think just how the country emerged 2000 years now still holding on to most of its heartland....

Can USA woop China as easily as Japan?? Dunno. The course of invasion might repeat itself again with the easy conquest of Shang-hai and Beijing etc. Then getting bogged down in mid-China around Sichuan province....
Japan never got close to Sichuan on land. They bombed major cities in Sichuan periodically, but that was really meant as token measure. It was because Chinese central government was located there. China had several millions of troops around China at the time and was holding Japan to a virtual standstill by itself during the middle portion of the second Sino-Japanese War. Note China at the time was essentially a medieval nation. Today's China is a whole different animal. It was very powerful not only militarily but also economically. I don't imagine Shanghai or Beijing would be easy conquests anymore.

PS. Taiwan is really the far extremity of China proper.
 
Sep 2010
112
Hanzhong
China proper usually doesn't count Sichuan, I just added it because I count it. If I remember correctly most of that which is south of the Changjiang isn't China proper either. This is speaking of China proper as a geologic term.

Mandate, do you happen to know about how far Japan got from Sichuan, say Chongqing? I've always wondered but don't have numbers.