Japan in WW2

Nov 2014
1,592
Birmingham, UK
#21
Well, the British had betrayed the French by signing a naval agreement with Germany, a complete violation of the treaty of Versailles. The British also betrayed France by sending only 500 000 men for the battle of France against Germany. The British expected the French to be cannon fodder and were wrong. They had no legal right to attack the French fleet, it was unprovoked as Edric said, unless losing the war is a provocation.
except of course, having not surrendered, it's difficult to see the British as having lost the war, which is what happens when a country surrenders, not when it carries on fighting
 

Larrey

Ad Honorem
Sep 2011
5,410
#23
Nopes. It was that sort of situation in a horror movie when a girl kills her boyfriend thinking it was the ghost.

Up in heavens Clausewitz was probably shouting - "Zee ihr idioten, it is zis kind of klusterfuck I vas talking about."
Or as Fouché, right next to him might have observed:
"Eet ez worse zan a crime. Eet ez a mistake."

The politics of the situation also meant that Churchill wedded himself and the UK to de Gaulle and the Free French. That made it all that much harder to later distance themselves from the Free French in favour of the Vichyists.
 
Oct 2016
1,081
Merryland
#24
How are we defining "bushido?"



Is the above an acceptable criteria?

If so, they fail miserably in regards to compassion.

Honor? Their treatment of POWs and many civilians wasn't honorable.

I'll give them courage.... I suppose.

Duty/loyalty....ok.

Integrity? No way.

Honesty and sincerity? I don't think so.

Overall, that's like an F.
the original Bushido code was for Samurai, which were relatively few in number and required years of training to achieve warrior status.
the mass forces in WWII precluded such values and philosophies. they mass produced soldiers with a veneer of 'warrior virtue'.
 
Jan 2015
3,285
Front Lines of the Pig War
#25
Well, the British had betrayed the French by signing a naval agreement with Germany, a complete violation of the treaty of Versailles.
Wrong.
There is no clause in Versailles that forbids either Germany or Britain from signing a treaty.

Germany signed the Versailles treaty, and later an agreement with Britain.
They were legally bound to abide by both of them

The British also betrayed France by sending only 500 000 men for the battle of France against Germany. .
Betrayed?
How is Britain obligated to defend France, if the French are incapable of doing so?

The British expected the French to be cannon fodder and were wrong. .
No, they expected France to take responsibility for their own defence.
They had no legal right to attack the French fleet, it was unprovoked as Edric said, unless losing the war is a provocation.
.
France made and agreement with the British and then violated it.
Britain was not obligated to trust a former ally that had just betrayed it
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
33,670
T'Republic of Yorkshire
#26
the original Bushido code was for Samurai, which were relatively few in number and required years of training to achieve warrior status.
the mass forces in WWII precluded such values and philosophies. they mass produced soldiers with a veneer of 'warrior virtue'.
Actually, the "original" Bushido was propagated by the Tokugawa government in order to keep an armed population (who didn't all know how to swing a sword, but were all allowed to carry them) in line, by telling them loyalty and servitude were the highest virtues. This was carried on in the military doctrine of post-restoration Japan - thus, junior soldiers obeyed orders to charge into machine gun fire unquestioningly.
 
Jul 2016
9,311
USA
#27
Dastardly? It was war, which is itself murder. Not willing to quibble over niceties..

IMO, If you must a have war, the ultimate goal should be maximum gain for minimal loss, not winning by attrition, which tends to be the case.

I had wondered about international law. Wasn't aware Japan had signed the Hague convention. That was silly.
It wasn't war. It was done before war was even declared. That's why it was dastardly, aka wicked and cruel.
 
Jul 2016
9,311
USA
#28
Actually, the "original" Bushido was propagated by the Tokugawa government in order to keep an armed population (who didn't all know how to swing a sword, but were all allowed to carry them) in line, by telling them loyalty and servitude were the highest virtues. This was carried on in the military doctrine of post-restoration Japan - thus, junior soldiers obeyed orders to charge into machine gun fire unquestioningly.
Yep, 20th century bushido was a complete fabrication to create a more warlike society. That and Yamato-damashii were used heavily as propaganda by militarists in the 20s wanting a stronger populace for purposes of war and conquest.
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
33,670
T'Republic of Yorkshire
#29
Yep, 20th century bushido was a complete fabrication to create a more warlike society. That and Yamato-damashii were used heavily as propaganda by militarists in the 20s wanting a stronger populace for purposes of war and conquest.
You can get a taste of it if you visit the Yasukuni shrine in Tokyo. They play videos which are very similar to the kind of propaganda that would have been played at the time, although much milder, going on about how the youth of today have lost the Yamato-damashii. There's also a kaiten (suicide torpedo) on display which you're not allowed to photograph, amd a lot of signs (in English) explaining how Cordelll Hull pushed Japan into war.
 
Likes: Scaeva
Jul 2016
9,311
USA
#30
You can get a taste of it if you visit the Yasukuni shrine in Tokyo. They play videos which are very similar to the kind of propaganda that would have been played at the time, although much milder, going on about how the youth of today have lost the Yamato-damashii. There's also a kaiten (suicide torpedo) on display which you're not allowed to photograph, amd a lot of signs (in English) explaining how Cordelll Hull pushed Japan into war.
Lol. Love me some propaganda tourist attractions.