Jean de Joinville accounts of Saint Louis

JoanOfArc007

Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
3,995
USA
Any accounts of the life of Saint Louis by Jean de Joinville would be appreciated. So far I have this,

John of Joinville, a friend and biographer of St. Louis provides a vivid description of him in the battle outside Mansurah following the deaths of Robert of Artois and the Templars:

“While I was on foot with my knights, wounded, as I have already told you, up came the King with his own division; there was a great shouting and a tremendous noise of trumpets and kettledrums; he halted on a raised roadway. Never have I seen so fine a man in arms; he towered head and shoulders over his people, a gilded helmet on his head, and in his hand a sword of German steel. When he had halted there, the good knights of his household of whom I spoke before, with some of the brave knights of the King’s division, hurled themselves into the midst of the Turks. You must know that this was a great feat of arms; for there was no shooting of arrows nor bolts; on both sides it was a fight with mace and sword, in a mixed mass of our men and the Turks.”8


 
Jul 2019
850
New Jersey
More from Joinville:

"He [Saint Louis] told me that there was once a great disputation between clergy and Jews at the monastery of Cluny. And there was at Cluny a poor knight to whom the abbot gave bread at that place for the love of God; and this knight asked the abbot to suffer him to speak the first words, and they suffered him, not without doubt. So he rose, and leant upon his crutch, and asked that they should bring to him the greatest clerk [clergyman] and most learned master among the Jews; and they did so. Then he asked the Jew a question, which was this: "Master'" said the knight, "I ask you if you believe that the Virgin Mary, who bore God in her body and in her arms, was a virgin mother, and is the mother of God?"

"And the Jew replied that of all this he believed nothing. Then the knight answered that the Jew had acted like a fool when-neither believing in her, nor loving her-he had yet entered into her monastery and house. "And verily," said the knight, "you shall pay for it!" Whereupon he lifted his crutch and smote the Jew near the ear, and beat him to the earth. Then the Jews turned to flight, and bore away their master, sore wounded. And so ended the disputation.

"The abbot came to the knight and told him he had committed a deed of very great folly. But the knight replied that the abbot committed a deed of greater folly in gathering people together for such a disputation; for there were a great many good Christians there who, before the disputation came to an end, would have gone away misbelievers through not fully understanding the Jews. "And I tell ell you," said the king, "that no one, unless he be a very learned, clerk, should dispute with them; but a layman, when he hears the Christian law mis-said should not defend the Christian law, unless it be he with his sword, and with that he should pierce the mis-sayer in the midriff, so far as the sword will enter."


Passed the anti-Jewish Ordinance of Melun, limiting the trades permissible to Jews and severely curtailing their freedom to travel. Eventually, "Saint" Louis confiscated and publicly burnt many thousands of Jewish holy books and expelled the Jews from the royal demesne. He also expanded the reach of the Inquisition in France and intensified the persecution of the Cathars.
 
Last edited:

JoanOfArc007

Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
3,995
USA
More from Joinville:

"He [Saint Louis] told me that there was once a great disputation between clergy and Jews at the monastery of Cluny. And there was at Cluny a poor knight to whom the abbot gave bread at that place for the love of God; and this knight asked the abbot to suffer him to speak the first words, and they suffered him, not without doubt. So he rose, and leant upon his crutch, and asked that they should bring to him the greatest clerk [clergyman] and most learned master among the Jews; and they did so. Then he asked the Jew a question, which was this: "Master'" said the knight, "I ask you if you believe that the Virgin Mary, who bore God in her body and in her arms, was a virgin mother, and is the mother of God?"

"And the Jew replied that of all this he believed nothing. Then the knight answered that the Jew had acted like a fool when-neither believing in her, nor loving her-he had yet entered into her monastery and house. "And verily," said the knight, "you shall pay for it!" Whereupon he lifted his crutch and smote the Jew near the ear, and beat him to the earth. Then the Jews turned to flight, and bore away their master, sore wounded. And so ended the disputation.

"The abbot came to the knight and told him he had committed a deed of very great folly. But the knight replied that the abbot committed a deed of greater folly in gathering people together for such a disputation; for there were a great many good Christians there who, before the disputation came to an end, would have gone away misbelievers through not fully understanding the Jews. "And I tell ell you," said the king, "that no one, unless he be a very learned, clerk, should dispute with them; but a layman, when he hears the Christian law mis-said should not defend the Christian law, unless it be he with his sword, and with that he should pierce the mis-sayer in the midriff, so far as the sword will enter."


Passed the anti-Jewish Ordinance of Melun, limiting the trades permissible to Jews and severely curtailing their freedom to travel. Eventually, "Saint" Louis confiscated and publicly burnt many thousands of Jewish holy books and expelled the Jews from the royal demesne. He also expanded the reach of the Inquisition in France and intensified the persecution of the Cathars.
Hello friend what is the source of that above because I don’t buy it. Who is saying that Joinville made those claims ?

None of what you mentioned above was mentioned in extensive article of the post that I made.

St Louis is a revered figure worldwide perhaps your source is a divisive one. During the middle ages just as it is now there were individuals and even groups that were criminals and heads of states cannot control this nor will they ever be able to control such an ordeal. Even in Jewish majority states or Jewish majority areas there would have been Jewish criminals just as there would have been Christian criminals in Christian majority areas. A King , Duke, Governor, Senator Even if they are good in will they cannot prevent the crimes of individual peoples
 

JoanOfArc007

Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
3,995
USA
The link shows us a 740+ page book filled with information. Not only of the life of St Louis but also the book titled the Memoirs of John Lord de Joinville also speak of de Joinvilles own life. Here is something I wonder, should the name John or Jean be used when talking of the first name of de Joinville?

Im trying to find the pages of said memoir that discuss St Louis contributions to helping poor people, do you know which section such information could be found in?
 

JoanOfArc007

Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
3,995
USA
Of great interest is that King Louis IX was the only King of French history to be canonized as a Saint. And Britannica, which is a non religious non Catholic world renown encyclopedia...makes no mention of the claims of intolerance that for example Wikipedia mentions which is where I believe the gentlemen Abraham 95 obtained the information from his post itt. What Britannica gives us is a viewpoint from the perspective of qualified historians as opposed to for example Wikipedia where anyone can add to articles on various events or figures of history. Dont get me wrong Wikipedia has its uses but one must not only rely on wiki. That said we can see through multiple sources Catholic and non Catholic that St Louis while he did at times have a temper that St Louis truly cared about the poor and preaching values of tolerance. The Britannica article is a much more scholarly article compared to the wiki article on St Louis, even the Britannica article mentions the faults of St Louis so no bias there. There are now at least 3 links itt that discuss St Louis in length....and none of them mention the allegations of intolerance that Wikipedia claims about St Louis. It is true that history includes Kings and Queens whom were ruthless and intolerant, but St Louis was not one of them. There is a reason why cities and monuments across the world are named after St Louis.

Saint Louis was a devout Catholic. His mother, Blanche of Castile greatly influenced his Catholic upbringing and strong morals. Renowned for his charity, Saint Louis, King of France, was known to be very kind, giving him much credit to his subjects in the kingdom. There are many accounts of him humbly serving the poor, feeding lepers, and giving away money to those who needed it. He was a modest king, who was known to not be greedy. As he was devoted to giving, he was also devoted to fighting for his faith in the crusades. He fought two crusades, but died in his second of dysentery. Saint Louis greatly influenced the religious arts, since he was known to purchase and even build many churches and cathedrals. He also built many hospitals and houses for the bind, reformed prostitutes, and fed the poor from his table. Saint Louis, the only king to be named a saint, has been recognized in history as a great and humble king. His story influenced many, among them Pierre Laclede, a Catholic Frenchman who named a city after him


 
Jul 2019
850
New Jersey
Hello friend what is the source of that above because I don’t buy it. Who is saying that Joinville made those claims ?
My initial quote was drawn from Fordham University's site, but since you would probably say they're lying I went back and found the quote in Joinville himself. Here's wayback machine's text of Joinville's Memoirs. You will find the quote I cited on page 18 (albeit with a trivially different translation).

Louis' burning of the Talmud, expulsion of the Jews from Paris, and anti-Jewish Ordinance of Melun are well-documented events. Do you need me to un-dig sources for you? And do you deny that he stepped up persecutions on the Cathars and Albigenisians?

The fact is, and this is known to every student of Jewish history, that Louis IX was a rabid Jew-hater and his reign was more or less the death knell for medieval French Jewry. That is undeniable. In short, I would tell you that your "revered saint" was a persecutor and hater of the Jews. He was hardly alone in holding that attitude, but his zeal against the Jews was quite notable, even for his time.
 
Last edited:

JoanOfArc007

Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
3,995
USA
My initial quote was drawn from Fordham University's site, but since you would probably say they're lying I went back and found the quote in Joinville himself. Here's wayback machine's text of Joinville's Memoirs. You will find the quote I cited on page 18 (albeit with a trivially different translation).

Louis' burning of the Talmud, expulsion of the Jews from Paris, and anti-Jewish Ordinance of Melun are well-documented events. Do you need me to un-dig sources for you? And do you deny that he stepped up persecutions on the Cathars and Albigenisians?

The fact is, and this is known to every student of Jewish history, that Louis IX was a rabid Jew-hater and his reign was more or less the death knell for medieval French Jewry. That is undeniable. In short, I would tell you that your "revered saint" was a persecutor and hater of the Jews. He was hardly alone in holding that attitude, but his zeal against the Jews was quite notable, even for his time.
It may have been that some Jews and some Christians of the relm of St Louis committed crimes, they would have all been opposed. Britannica says that St Louis had a pious mother whom brought Louis up in a non bigoted Christian setting. Louis also had to deal with Cathar rebellions. Its not a matter of me viewing any person or group as liars. Other sources have been posted that challenge this anti St Louis narrative. And of course not everyone agrees, student of Jewish history or student of any history when it comes to the character and legacy of St Louis. To this day in Israel Jewish figures that have critiques just as you criticize St Louis....also have streets and monuments named after them in Israel. I would not though overtly complain to people in Israel to say that their heroes are somehow villains. For this situation there is more to the picture then meet the eye. Bottom Line is St Louis is honored worldwide by people of all colors and walks of life, he is a good figure to look up to. At least agree that St Louis is not in the same category as say the leader of ISIL?
 

JoanOfArc007

Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
3,995
USA
I must stress Abraham95 that Britannica has a very lengthy article on St Louis and not once is antisemitism mentioned. And that speaks volumes because plenty of Britannica articles do point out antisemitic acts by individuals of history.