Jean de Joinville accounts of Saint Louis

Jul 2019
850
New Jersey
It may have been that some Jews and some Christians of the relm of St Louis committed crimes, they would have all been opposed. Britannica says that St Louis had a pious mother whom brought Louis up in a non bigoted Christian setting. Louis also had to deal with Cathar rebellions. Its not a matter of me viewing any person or group as liars. Other sources have been posted that challenge this anti St Louis narrative. And of course not everyone agrees, student of Jewish history or student of any history when it comes to the character and legacy of St Louis. To this day in Israel Jewish figures that have critiques just as you criticize St Louis....also have streets and monuments named after them in Israel. I would not though overtly complain to people in Israel to say that their heroes are somehow villains. For this situation there is more to the picture then meet the eye. Bottom Line is St Louis is honored worldwide by people of all colors and walks of life, he is a good figure to look up to. At least agree that St Louis is not in the same category as say the leader of ISIL?
I would definitely agree that Louis IX was nothing like the butchers of ISIS (although the depredations carried out against the Cathars were pretty awful). Louis genuinely cared about his Christian subjects, be they rich or poor, and was in many respects a model ruler.

The reason why I bring his anti-semitism up (and I reiterate that it is universally accepted by historians that he was an anti-semite - Britannica's omission notwithstanding) is to point out that not everything is so clear cut. "Heroes" and "villains" are the stuff of fantasy books, not real life. Yes, in some respects he was a great man - but in other respects he was awful. There's no need to reconcile the good Louis IX and the bad Louis IX. That's just the way human nature works, we are creatures full of contradictions. You are praising Louis extensively, so I am balancing your positive points with my negative points. Had you vilified Louis IX extensively, I would balance your negative points with positive ones.
 

JoanOfArc007

Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
3,995
USA
The Enseignements (written instructions) which he left to his son Philip and to his daughter Isabel, the discourses preserved by the witnesses at judicial investigations preparatory to his canonization and Joinville's anecdotes show St. Louis to have been a man of sound common sense, possessing indefatigable energy, graciously kind and of playful humour, and constantly guarding against the temptation to be imperious. The caricature made of him by the envoy of the Count of Gueldre: "worthless devotee, hypocritical king" was very far from the truth. On the contrary, St. Louis, through his personal qualities as well as his saintliness, increased for many centuries the prestige of the French monarchy (see FRANCE). St. Louis's canonization was proclaimed at Orvieto in 1297, by Boniface VIII. Of the inquiries in view of canonization, carried on from 1273 till 1297, we have only fragmentary reports published by Delaborde ("Mémoires de la société de l'histoire de Paris et de l'Ilea de France," XXIII, 1896) and a series of extracts compiled by Guillaume de St. Pathus, Queen Marguerite's confessor, under the title of "Vie Monseigneur Saint Loys" (Paris, 1899).

 

JoanOfArc007

Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
3,995
USA
I would definitely agree that Louis IX was nothing like the butchers of ISIS (although the depredations carried out against the Cathars were pretty awful). Louis genuinely cared about his Christian subjects, be they rich or poor, and was in many respects a model ruler.

The reason why I bring his anti-semitism up (and I reiterate that it is universally accepted by historians that he was an anti-semite - Britannica's omission notwithstanding) is to point out that not everything is so clear cut. "Heroes" and "villains" are the stuff of fantasy books, not real life. Yes, in some respects he was a great man - but in other respects he was awful. There's no need to reconcile the good Louis IX and the bad Louis IX. That's just the way human nature works, we are creatures full of contradictions. You are praising Louis extensively, so I am balancing your positive points with my negative points. Had you vilified Louis IX extensively, I would balance your negative points with positive ones.
Thank you and honestly I did not think that I was praising St. Louis in this thread rather I was discussing him in nature. That being said though I do have a positive view of St. Louis as do billions in this world. St. Louis is not the only figure of history who has his detractors if you will, think of Christopher Columbus for example and many others. Now the reason why I brought up the leader of isil is because I am utterly convinced that we will never see a monument to the leader of Isil at any point in the future of history. That’s the difference between a truly wretched figure of history in comparison to other figures of history

And in no way am I trying to say you are wrong or your sources are wrong but I believe we can cast doubt on some of these allegations against the Saint. At this point it would also be useful if one of us could get our hands on the earliest recorded document of joinvilles account of the life of St Louis. As I’m sure that you have discussed Jewish figures of for example the 20th century that are figures of controversy for some, Or an Englishman and a Scotsman having a conversation about Edward the first. This conversation is sort of similar in that regard. So I get where you are coming from

Sources have been posted in this thread which cast doubt on the allegations of St Louis being some sort of wretched person. By the way I even noted that the Britannica article discusses the negative traits of St. Louis. No man is perfect in this world neither today nor in the past.