Jesus Christ: A Flavian Invention?

Oct 2019
56
Budapest
Why are you asking me that? If this has something to do with my texts, then please formulate the question in connection with my statements. The way you put it, it sounds like a quiz question.
We talked about the New Testament, and the debate was about : Can we blame the Jews or the Romans for the death of Jesus.
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,054
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Except it really makes zero sense for the Flavians to invent a religion to placate the Jews. As I already said, the NT doesn't really show the Romans in a good light and as many noted the Jews are portrayed even worse. So, why would this religion made to quell tension in Judea show the Jews in such a negative light? And the biggest question is: why would the Romans even want to placate the Jews during the Flavian age? They crushed their rebellion and destroyed their Temple. They were clearly ready to use force to subdue any Jewish uprisings.
Why to placate the Jews? The Jews in Rome were important in the age of Caesar [he even issued laws to give them some privileges], but after the destruction of the Temple [which was probably the main reason why Roman Jews were doing lobbying activity on the Roman Senate] the Jews were a defeated people ... Romans had not reason to "placate them" ... Romans were expert about dealing with defeated peoples: deportation and enslavement.
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,054
Italy, Lago Maggiore
But Christianity and Christ were mentioned before Constantine's time.
Here we enter the field of the history of the manuscripts. That is to say ... is the manuscript mentioning Christianity and Christ so ancient to predate Constantine? If you make a research you will find out that this is not the rule.

But I think that Christianity predates Constantine and there are fragments of the Gospels from the early centuries.
 
Nov 2016
1,037
Germany
We talked about the New Testament, and the debate was about : Can we blame the Jews or the Romans for the death of Jesus.
I belong to the mythicists, so your question about Judas is irrelevant for me or it can only be considered in the context of the Jesus fable, which pretends to be a factual report. In other words: I mean that Judas is - like Jesus - not a historical figure, but a literary invention. Under these circumstances, are you still interested in an answer to your question?
 
Oct 2019
56
Budapest
But Christianity and Christ were mentioned before Constantine's time.
I belong to the mythicists, so the question as such is irrelevant for me or it can only be considered on the level of the Jesus Fable, which pretends to be a factual report. In other words: I mean that Judas is not a historical figure, but a literary invention. Under these circumstances, are you still interested in an answer to your question?
Yes, because the persons who gave the 30 silvers to Judas, can decide who had the original "responsibility" and who were only the executors...
 

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,565
Republika Srpska
Why to placate the Jews? The Jews in Rome were important in the age of Caesar [he even issued laws to give them some privileges], but after the destruction of the Temple [which was probably the main reason why Roman Jews were doing lobbying activity on the Roman Senate] the Jews were a defeated people ... Romans had not reason to "placate them" ... Romans were expert about dealing with defeated peoples: deportation and enslavement.
From the OP:
the Romans used this peaceful messiah who proposed loyalty to the Caesar in order to quell rising tensions in the region after the First Jewish-Roman war in 70CE.
I agree the Romans had no reason to placate Jews after 70 AD.

Here we enter the field of the history of the manuscripts. That is to say ... is the manuscript mentioning Christianity and Christ so ancient to predate Constantine? If you make a research you will find out that this is not the rule.

But I think that Christianity predates Constantine and there are fragments of the Gospels from the early centuries.
Then the Christians are incompetent forgers: they forged only a handful of manuscripts. If all the non-Christian references to Christianity were forgeries from the age of Constantine, one would think there would have been a lot more of them.
 
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AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,054
Italy, Lago Maggiore
From the OP:

I agree the Romans had no reason to placate Jews after 70 AD.


Then the Christians are incompetent forgers: they forged only a handful of manuscripts. If all the non-Christian references to Christianity were forgeries from the age of Constantine, one would think there would have been a lot more of them.
I'm reporting a hypothesis. Being Christian Protestant I would receive the accusation to be biased presenting such a hypothesis in a negative light.
 
Oct 2019
56
Budapest
Which part of my statement that Judas and Jesus are not historical did you not understand?
Why does it matter in this regard and context that Jesus and Judas were real of imagined persons?

We spoke about the responsibility of Romans Vs. Jews according to the Biblical context. So who cares if they existed or not?
 
Last edited:
Oct 2018
1,531
Sydney
Here we enter the field of the history of the manuscripts. That is to say ... is the manuscript mentioning Christianity and Christ so ancient to predate Constantine? If you make a research you will find out that this is not the rule.

But I think that Christianity predates Constantine and there are fragments of the Gospels from the early centuries.
One of the problems with this idea is that it cannot persuasively account for the considerable evidence that Diocletian and the Tetrarchs persecuted the Christians before Constantine became emperor. It also appears to assume (at least from what I've seen of it on this forum) that the Constantinian regime and the Christian writers of the time were a) united in purpose in a way that doesn't take sufficient account of the different agendas and ecclesiastical disputes of the time, and b) were unusually capable of persuading the pagan writers of the time that no such fabrication had occurred.