Jewish migration within Russia w/o Communism & Holocaust?

Futurist

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May 2014
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What would Jewish migration outside of the Pale of Settlement after 1917 have looked like had there been no Bolshevik Revolution in Russia (the first Russian Revolution in February 1917 still occurs in this scenario, though), no propiska system, and no Holocaust?

In real life, something like several hundred thousand Jews moved to Russian territories east of the Pale of Settlement between 1917 and 1941--after which point the Jewish population in the Russian interior stabilized and subsequently began really declining after 1959. However, would this number have been much greater without Communism, the propiska system, and the Holocaust?
 

Futurist

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May 2014
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SoCal
@Visigoth Panzer: Any thoughts on this?

Also, FWIW, here's a map of the percentage of people speaking Jewish languages (Hebrew and Yiddish) in the Russian Empire back in 1897:



This is back when most Russian Jews were still forced to live in the Pale of Settlement--which explains the extremely heavy Jewish presence in the Pale and the generally low Jewish presence outside of the Pale (other than in parts of Siberia and the Russian Far East, for some reason).
 
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Jul 2019
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@Visigoth Panzer: Any thoughts on this?

Also, FWIW, here's a map of the percentage of people speaking Jewish languages (Hebrew and Yiddish) in the Russian Empire back in 1897:



This is back when most Russian Jews were still forced to live in the Pale of Settlement--which explains the extremely heavy Jewish presence in the Pale and the generally low Jewish presence outside of the Pale (other than in parts of Siberia and the Russian Far East, for some reason).
Something's odd about that map, at least for 1897. What's that huge presence around Mongolia? I suspect another language is mixed into there that is causing the far eastern settlement.

To the point of the thread, if there was no communism there would've been no revolution, which means the Czars would have continued to do their thing. Continued massive emigration to the US, UK, and eventually Palestine is the only thing we can take for a given.
 
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Futurist

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May 2014
23,676
SoCal
Something's odd about that map, at least for 1897. What's that huge presence around Mongolia. I suspect another language is mixed into there that is causing the far eastern settlement.
Maybe Tsarist Russia deported some Jewish revolutionaries to Siberia? Just a guess on my own part.

To the point of the thread, if there was no communism there would've been revolution, which means the Czars would have continued to do there thing. Continued massive emigration to the US, UK, and eventually Palestine is the only thing we can take for a given.
Actually, there were two revolutions in Russia in 1917--the moderate/liberal February one and the radical Bolshevik November one. I was thinking of having the first Russian Revolution occur but not the second Russian Revolution. Interestingly enough, Russia's Provisional Government quickly abolished the Pale of Settlement after the overthrow of Russian Tsar Nicholas II in early 1917. So, that part still occurs in this scenario.
 
Jul 2019
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Maybe Tsarist Russia deported some Jewish revolutionaries to Siberia? Just a guess on my own part.
To the point that they were 20% of the population?


Actually, there were two revolutions in Russia in 1917--the moderate/liberal February one and the radical Bolshevik November one. I was thinking of having the first Russian Revolution occur but not the second Russian Revolution. Interestingly enough, Russia's Provisional Government quickly abolished the Pale of Settlement after the overthrow of Russian Tsar Nicholas II in early 1917. So, that part still occurs in this scenario.
In that case, you would see an increased number of Jews moving to St Petersburg and Moscow. Basically, if you were upwardly mobile, you tried to get out of the shtetl and Pale.
 

Futurist

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May 2014
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To the point that they were 20% of the population?
That color seems more like 5-10% or at least 10-20%. So, even with the latter assumption, the Jewish percentage there could be as low as 10.1%. As for your question, Yes, possibly. I mean, there weren't that many people living in that part of Siberia back then, were there? Of course, another possible explanation for this is that Jews were involved in building the Trans-Siberian Railroad back then.

In that case, you would see an increased number of Jews moving to St Petersburg and Moscow. Basically, if you were upwardly mobile, you tried to get out of the shtetl and Pale.
Agreed. That said, though, what about moving to other large cities in the Russian interior?
 

Futurist

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May 2014
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Merci beaucoup, AEK! :) @Abraham95 might be especially interested in taking a look at this article. I just took a look at it and it's quite informative and explanatory. :)
 
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Apr 2017
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Without the revolution and Holocaust i'd imagine the jewish population would be larger than it is now, fewer would have moved to Israel (but many still might). As for their movement outside the Pale, i'd imagine they would move to major cities, primarily in central Russia but the core population would remain around the Pale.
 
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Futurist

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May 2014
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Without the revolution and Holocaust i'd imagine the jewish population would be larger than it is now, fewer would have moved to Israel (but many still might). As for their movement outside the Pale, i'd imagine they would move to major cities, primarily in central Russia but the core population would remain around the Pale.
Just how high do you think that the Jewish population within the territories that make up Russia's current borders in real life would have reached in this scenario? In real life, it went from 250,000 to 891,000 between 1897 and 1939 and then experienced a very sharp decline starting from 1959 (when it was 880,000, or just slightly below the 1939 levels):