Judaism AMA

Jul 2019
107
New Jersey
#61
This makes me think to a more religious matter: so the idea of a pilgrimage to visit the tomb of a Prophet or of a Patriarch is not so pivotal in your perspective, or it has got some importance anyway?
It has some importance - one can get inspired to live more like that holy person or something like that. Personally, I make a point to go and pray at Rachel's Tomb in Bethlehem and the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron whenever I go to Israel. So I wouldn't say that it's completely without worth.
 
Jul 2019
107
New Jersey
#62
Understood. And as this is an AMA of course we know folks will agree or disagree with what you provide. I also noted your earlier stance on Homosexuality, your view that apparently Homosexuals can be cured...

Personally, while I know some people who have quietly struggled with (and overcame) the test of homosexual desires, I know nobody in my community who has "come out".

I humbly submit that indeed in the USA or any liberal country in Europe that view would be viewed with high disdain.
Fortunately, I hold to what I believe regardless of what others may think. The world at large has mocked and disdained Judaism for millenia, so I'm simply part of a long tradition. The quote in my signature should tell you everything you need to know about how I feel about public opinion when it conflicts with God's laws.

That said I personally feel Judaism approves of equality wrt LGBT rights. That in a proper Jewish ran Gov that even an Atheist could be President of a Jewish State. Now note Im not just saying this because its a feel good thing to say. There areJewish Rabbis whom have come fourth with viewpoints that contradict what you are providing my friend,

5 Reasons Being an Orthodox Rabbi Compelled Me to Support Gay Marriage | HuffPost

Also consider that LGBT folks existed in the ancient and middle ages and in some cases were accepted in society in others they were not. Even Jewish scholars have varying approaches on how to deal with LGBT rights and intermarriage. So its not a one way issue here wrt how Jewish folks view these topics is it?
That "rabbi" in the article is a well-known media personality (he was also Michael Jackson's "rabbi"), not a scholar in any sense of the word. When one actually reads the article, one finds not a single substantial scholarly point, which is pretty astounding considering as the rabbi is trying to argue against numerous explicit comandments in the Bible, dozens of passages in the Talmud, and the written opinions of literally every single codifier of Jewish law over the past 1,000 years. You would think that that should require more rigorous arguments to overturn than "The Torah's all about love, dude!" Here's a challenge. I will give $50 to a charity of your choice for each Orthodox halachic authority living before the 1960s who maintains that homosexual activity is not a sin.

In this day and age of social media its easy to see that many Israeli Jews want a society that allows a President to be Atheist, that allows intermarriage and other basic human rights. You talk about how in your view Judaism disapproves of interfaith marriage. But what about the millions of Jews in the USA that intermarry? Some of them marry Muslims.

I respect your contribution by creating this thread and I would ask what of the many Liberal Jews that for example push for improved LGBT rights in Israel, that push for a political system where a non Jewish person can become President of Israel, things like this...I take it you simply disagree with such Jewish folks?
Yes, I do. I would add that the intermarriage rate is negligible among the Orthodox - that huge amount of intermarriage comes from conservative, reform, and unaffiliated Jews.

Or does it perhaps go further, Lets say you were the President of a Jewish State, let me bluntly ask would you arrest LGBT people for openly living there life? Or would you perhaps disallow LGBT marriage while at least for example allowing Gay pride parades and for example for gay clubs to exist as Israel for example does?

Pew survey of U.S. Jews: soaring intermarriage, assimilation rates - Jewish Telegraphic Agency
I don't think Sodomy laws are optimal in today's world. That said, I would not agree to allow a pride parade through the streets. They may do what they do, however wrong the Jewish religion believes it to be - out of sight. A Jewish state should uphold Judaism - at the very least in public.
 
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Jul 2019
107
New Jersey
#63
Who is a Jew according to the Written Torah?

Any difference in standing between a converted Jew and an offspring of Jewish mother?

What's the scriptural basis for matrilineal Jewishness?
I can't really answer the first question because the Written Torah simply doesn't exist alone. We Jews don't hold to the sort of Sola Scriptura approach that some other religions do. The Written Torah is inseperable from the Oral Torah.

A convert is considered the full equal of a Jew by birth. Indeed, one of the greatest Jewish leaders in Roman times, Rabbi Akiva, was the descendant of converts. Even King David was a descendant of the convert Ruth.

Matrilineal Judaism is primarily based on the Oral law and tradition. There is, however, some basis for it out of the Written Torah as well. When the verse in Deuteronomy (7:3-4) explains why intermarriage is a problem, it says, "Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, for they will turn your children away from following me to serve other gods ..."

That's the standard translation. When you look closely at the verb translated to mean "they will turn... away", you see that the standard translation is mistaken. The word which the Bible says is yasir, the singular masculine form meaning "he will turn... away" (rather than the word yasuru, which would be plural, and therefore, gender-neutral in context). In other words, we're only concerned with the non-Jewish father leading one's children astray, not the non-Jewish mother. This is understood to mean that the children of a non-Jewish mother will not be Jewish to begin with, hence we have no concern about her "turning them away".

But truth to be told, matrilineal Judaism is primarily based on the Oral Torah.
 
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Dec 2015
3,610
USA
#64
Fortunately, I hold to what I believe regardless of what others may think. The world at large has mocked and disdained Judaism for millenia, so I'm simply part of a long tradition. The quote in my signature should tell you everything you need to know about how I feel about public opinion when it conflicts with God's laws.



That "rabbi" in the article is a well-known media personality (he was also Michael Jackson's "rabbi"), not a scholar in any sense of the word. When one actually reads the article, one finds not a single substantial scholarly point, which is pretty astounding considering as the rabbi is trying to argue against numerous explicit comandments in the Bible, dozens of passages in the Talmud, and the written opinions of literally every single codifier of Jewish law over the past 1,000 years. You would think that that should require more rigorous arguments to overturn than "The Torah's all about love, dude!" Here's a challenge. I will give $50 to a charity of your choice for each Orthodox halachic authority living before the 1960s who maintains that homosexual activity is not a sin.



Yes, I do. I would add that the intermarriage rate is negligible among the Orthodox - that huge amount of intermarriage comes from conservative, reform, and unaffiliated Jews.



I don't think Sodomy laws are optimal in today's world. That said, I would not agree to allow a pride parade through the streets. They may do what they do, however wrong the Jewish religion believes it to be - out of sight. A Jewish state should uphold Judaism - at the very least in public.
I appreciate your honesty. Thats important to provide your honest thoughts on issues whether or not folks would agree with you. Like you I also always provide how I feel about the issue and its possible some folks may not like what I say.

Allow me to ask, would you bow before a Jewish King? What if Israel was a Monarchy, and had a Jewish King, would you bow before him? From a Christian POV and non Christian inlcuding Jewish, many Christians, Jews, Muslims and more have bowed before Kings of various faiths. IMO I feel that the bowing before a fellow man can be misconstrued. There are other elements of life where upon one may think God is being disrespected....Wrt how we call folks sir and Miss at times, is calling a fellow man sir putting the man above God? I dont think it is. We have Presidents and Kings in our world, are they above God, should all societies not have a human leader but perhaps they should be Anarchist if one is not to respect a higher power other then God?

There are plenty of Jewish scholars that argue for equal rights for LGBT, not just Rabbis that have worked with celebrities

As early as 1990, the Rabbinical Assembly’s Committee on Jewish Law and Standards, which sets halakhic (legal) policy for the Conservative Movement, stated their desire to “work for full and equal civil rights for gays and lesbians in our national life.” In 2011 the Committee recommitted themselves to that resolution and added specific goals that include extending “its call for full and equal civil rights to bisexual and transgender persons,” supporting “the extension of civil rights and privileges . . . to same sex couples,” and calling on communities to “develop an action plan to create a safe and welcoming atmosphere for GLBT individuals.”

Stances of Faiths on LGBTQ Issues: Conservative Judaism | Human Rights Campaign

Keshet - For LGBTQ Equality in Jewish Life

“The love of God’s creatures must include all humankind, regardless of religion and race. The narrow mindedness that sees whatever is outside our people as impure and contaminated is one of those terrible blights that destroys any good building.” - Rav Avraham Yitzchak Kook

PFLAG

Although Israel disallows LGBT marriage, polls have suggested many in Israel are ok with homosexual activity. So what say you to this, many of your fellow Jewish brothers and sisters are everyday pusing for more liberalism and equal rights in Israel, and they point to the Jewish scriptures as why they do so. So would you say all of these Jewish leaders and common folks that are saying Israel should allow LGBT folks to openly live there lives are going against Judaism? That brings me to another point, in your view is it allowed in Judaism to claim a fellow Jew is not actually following proper Judaism? If someone says they are Jewish and is married to a non Jew or is LGBT , in your view is that person a Jew or are they caste out of Judaism?

As for the intermarriage part, I know that many Orthodox Jews opposes such a marriage. That said do you find it interesting and perhaps worthy that as you bring up, conservative Jews intermarry in large #s in the USA.


Finally and importantly I get that some religious people are against things like intermarriage and LGBT rights. But would you say a Jewish state should have the ability to prevent basic human rights such as intermarriage and LGBT rights? Why not instead say as a religious Jew that you prefer Jewish folks to marry each other and that your prefer LGBT to change there ways while supporting having your Jewish State (whether its Theocratic or not) that allows equal rights for all?
 
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AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
26,232
Italy, Lago Maggiore
#65
It has some importance - one can get inspired to live more like that holy person or something like that. Personally, I make a point to go and pray at Rachel's Tomb in Bethlehem and the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron whenever I go to Israel. So I wouldn't say that it's completely without worth.
I agree, the example of some individuals who lived on this planet should be appreciated. Personally I think that next time I will be in Israel I will pay a visit to the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron. Even if someone told me that the place is at Al Khalil and it's in Palestine [I admit I ignored this]. My personal [as common Historumite] and questionable opinion is that the Tomb of the Patriarchs is Israeli, but this is an other matter.

In any case, I will visit it.
 
Jul 2019
107
New Jersey
#66
I wasn't aware of this - can you expand on the belief in reincarnation in Judaism? Is it considered mainstream and supported by scripture?
There is neither scriptural nor Talmudic basis for any sort of doctrine of reincarnation. As far as I'm aware, the first reference to reincarnation as a Jewish idea comes in the writings of Saadia Gaon, who harshly criticized it in his Emunot VeDe'ot, writing:

“Yet, I must say that I have found certain people, who call themselves Jews, professing the doctrine of metempsychosis (reincarnation) which is designated by them as the theory of “transmigration” of souls. What the mean thereby is that the spirit of Ruben is transferred to Simon and afterwards to Levi and after that to Judah. Many of them would go so far as to assert that the spirit of a human being might enter into the body of a beast or that of a beast into the body of a human being, and other such nonsense and stupidities.”

“This in itself, however, indicates how very foolish they are. For they take it for granted that the body of a man is capable of transforming the essence of the soul so as to make of it a human soul, after having been the soul of a beast. They assume, furthermore, that the soul itself is capable of transforming the essence of a human body to the point of endowing it with the traits of the beasts, even though its form be that of men. It was not sufficient for them, then, that they attributed to the soul a variable nature by not assigning to it an intrinsic essence, but they contradicted themselves when they declared the soul capable of transforming and changing the body, and the body capable of transforming and changing the soul. But such reasoning is a deviation from logic.

The third [argument they present] is in the form of a logical argument. They same, namely: “Inasmuch as the Creator is just, it is inconceivable that he should occasion suffering to little children, unless it be for sins committed by their souls during the time that they were lodged in their former bodies.” This view is, however, subject to numerous refutations.

The first is that they have forgotten what we have mentioned on the subject of compensation in the hereafter for misfortunes experienced in this world. Furthermore we should like to ask them what they conceive the original status of the soul to be we mean its status when it is first created. Is it charged by its Master with any obligation to obey Him or not? If they allege that it is not so charged, then there can be no punishments for it either, since it was not charged with any obligations to begin with. If, on the other hand, they acknowledge the imposition of such a charge, in which case obedience and disobedience did not apply before, they thereby admit that God charges His servants with obligations on account of the future and not at all on account of the past. But then they return to our theory and are forced to give up their insistence on the view that man’s suffering in this world is due solely to his conduct in a previous existence.”

The matter continued on as a point of contention until the "discovery" of the Zohar in the 13th Century. The Zohar, widely considered to be of ancient origin, repeatedly references reincarnation as a means for people to rectify sins they had committed in an earlier life. As Kabbalah became more and more mainstream, so did the doctrine of reincarnation. These days, reincarnation is widely believed in the Orthodox world, although there are those wh odon't believe in it. In any event, it's not a very important issue to most people, invoked only to account for otherwise unexplainable suffering in this world. Personally, I plead ignorance. Perhaps our souls return to this world, perhaps they don't. I don't know.
 
Jul 2019
107
New Jersey
#67
I appreciate your honesty. Thats important to provide your honest thoughts on issues whether or not folks would agree with you. Like you I also always provide how I feel about the issue and its possible some folks may not like what I say.
I appreciate the sentiment. Thank you.

Allow me to ask, would you bow before a Jewish King? What if Israel was a Monarchy, and had a Jewish King, would you bow before him? From a Christian POV and non Christian inlcuding Jewish, many Christians, Jews, Muslims and more have bowed before Kings of various faiths. IMO I feel that the bowing before a fellow man can be misconstrued. There are other elements of life where upon one may think God is being disrespected....Wrt how we call folks sir and Miss at times, is calling a fellow man sir putting the man above God? I dont think it is. We have Presidents and Kings in our world, are they above God, should all societies not have a human leader but perhaps they should be Anarchist if one is not to respect a higher power other then God?
You're taking that quote a little too far here. Common courtesy is not "bowing". Changing your religion to satisfy those who don't adhere to its laws is.

There are plenty of Jewish scholars that argue for equal rights for LGBT, not just Rabbis that have worked with celebrities
Not Orthodox ones. There are a couple of attention grabbers in today's world, but they are a far left fringe and are, to boot, quite ignorant.

As early as 1990, the Rabbinical Assembly’s Committee on Jewish Law and Standards, which sets halakhic (legal) policy for the Conservative Movement, stated their desire to “work for full and equal civil rights for gays and lesbians in our national life.” In 2011 the Committee recommitted themselves to that resolution and added specific goals that include extending “its call for full and equal civil rights to bisexual and transgender persons,” supporting “the extension of civil rights and privileges . . . to same sex couples,” and calling on communities to “develop an action plan to create a safe and welcoming atmosphere for GLBT individuals.”


"Conservative" Judaism is not Orthodox. There's nothing conservative about them, either, by the way. They deny the Divinity of the Torah, they eat unkosher, they violate the Sabbath, they marry out of the faith... for that matter there's not much that can be called Jewish in what they believe or do, either.

Keshet - For LGBTQ Equality in Jewish Life

“The love of God’s creatures must include all humankind, regardless of religion and race. The narrow mindedness that sees whatever is outside our people as impure and contaminated is one of those terrible blights that destroys any good building.” - Rav Avraham Yitzchak Kook

PFLAG
These are activists, not scholars, and what's more, they're not particularly religious either. None of these groups offer any serious argument of why three millenia of Torah interpretation is in error - just vague handwaving about love and equality.

And just a note regarding that quote from Rabbi Kook: you will never hear me utter a personally hateful remark against a homosexual. I don't hate them. I hate what they do. If I saw a homosexual in need you can bet your bottom dollar that I would run to help him. I try to be kind and courteous to everyone; the only thing I won't do is facilitate their campaign against the Torah's teachings.

Although Israel disallows LGBT marriage, polls have suggested many in Israel are ok with homosexual activity. So what say you to this, many of your fellow Jewish brothers and sisters are everyday pusing for more liberalism and equal rights in Israel, and they point to the Jewish scriptures as why they do so. So would you say all of these Jewish leaders and common folks that are saying Israel should allow LGBT folks to openly live there lives are going against Judaism?
Yes. I will add that it's rather rich that all these people point to a scripture which they don't adhere to in order to convince those who do adhere to it to violate that very same scripture's explicit commandments. There's a word for that in English that begins with an H and ends with a Y.

What's more, I would add that Israel is growing more, not less, religious, and a substantial (and growing) majority of the country does not agree with these activists.

That brings me to another point, in your view is it allowed in Judaism to claim a fellow Jew is not actually following proper Judaism?
I don't see why not. If they blithely disregard what the Torah says then they aren't following it. That seems pretty straightforward to me.

If someone says they are Jewish and is married to a non Jew or is LGBT , in your view is that person a Jew or are they caste out of Judaism?
They are obviously still Jews. The only question is whether they are ignorant Jews or disloyal Jews. I don't make such judgments; God knows what's in the hearts of men and judges them accordingly. All I'm doing is saying that they're doing something wrong. I make no presumption on how God will judge them.

As for the intermarriage part, I know that many Orthodox Jews opposes such a marriage. That said do you find it interesting and perhaps worthy that as you bring up, conservative Jews intermarry in large #s in the USA.
As I've said above, not really. They don't keep any other commandments in the Torah, why wouldn't they intermarry?


Finally and importantly I get that some religious people are against things like intermarriage and LGBT rights. But would you say a Jewish state should have the ability to prevent basic human rights such as intermarriage and LGBT rights? Why not instead say as a religious Jew that you prefer Jewish folks to marry each other and that your prefer LGBT to change there ways while supporting having your Jewish State (whether its Theocratic or not) that allows equal rights for all?
The ability to flaunt one's sexuality in public is not a "basic human right". As a matter of fact, I don't believe that the ability to have sex with whomever one wishes is a basic human right either. It's just a libertine wish list. The word "rights" is terribly overused these days - as far as I'm concerned rights, in the Lockean sense, are limited to life, liberty, and property. Not recognizing homosexual relationships as marriage violates none of these.

---------

If there's one point I'd like to highlight, it's this: we have millenia of tradition behind us, and our traditions have withstood the full might of Greece, Rome, and the Christian faith. It's gonna take a lot more than a few activists to make us change now.
 
Dec 2015
3,610
USA
#68
I appreciate the sentiment. Thank you.


You're taking that quote a little too far here. Common courtesy is not "bowing". Changing your religion to satisfy those who don't adhere to its laws is.



Not Orthodox ones. There are a couple of attention grabbers in today's world, but they are a far left fringe and are, to boot, quite ignorant.



"Conservative" Judaism is not Orthodox. There's nothing conservative about them, either, by the way. They deny the Divinity of the Torah, they eat unkosher, they violate the Sabbath, they marry out of the faith... for that matter there's not much that can be called Jewish in what they believe or do, either.



These are activists, not scholars, and what's more, they're not particularly religious either. None of these groups offer any serious argument of why three millenia of Torah interpretation is in error - just vague handwaving about love and equality.

And just a note regarding that quote from Rabbi Kook: you will never hear me utter a personally hateful remark against a homosexual. I don't hate them. I hate what they do. If I saw a homosexual in need you can bet your bottom dollar that I would run to help him. I try to be kind and courteous to everyone; the only thing I won't do is facilitate their campaign against the Torah's teachings.



Yes. I will add that it's rather rich that all these people point to a scripture which they don't adhere to in order to convince those who do adhere to it to violate that very same scripture's explicit commandments. There's a word for that in English that begins with an H and ends with a Y.

What's more, I would add that Israel is growing more, not less, religious, and a substantial (and growing) majority of the country does not agree with these activists.


I don't see why not. If they blithely disregard what the Torah says then they aren't following it. That seems pretty straightforward to me.


They are obviously still Jews. The only question is whether they are ignorant Jews or disloyal Jews. I don't make such judgments; God knows what's in the hearts of men and judges them accordingly. All I'm doing is saying that they're doing something wrong. I make no presumption on how God will judge them.



As I've said above, not really. They don't keep any other commandments in the Torah, why wouldn't they intermarry?




The ability to flaunt one's sexuality in public is not a "basic human right". As a matter of fact, I don't believe that the ability to have sex with whomever one wishes is a basic human right either. It's just a libertine wish list. The word "rights" is terribly overused these days - as far as I'm concerned rights, in the Lockean sense, are limited to life, liberty, and property. Not recognizing homosexual relationships as marriage violates none of these.

---------

If there's one point I'd like to highlight, it's this: we have millenia of tradition behind us, and our traditions have withstood the full might of Greece, Rome, and the Christian faith. It's gonna take a lot more than a few activists to make us change now.
Thank you for the clarification on the bowing point.

I respect the fact that many Jewish people fought for the USSR, Soviet Jews 500,000 of them took up arms in WW2 to fight against the Third Reich. My respect for Jewish people is in large part based on this. Which would lead me to ask, what do you think about Communism? And aside from that, how do you feel about the Soviet Jews whether they were religious or not whom took a part in WW2 on the allied side? Keep in mind there was intermarriage in the USSR and there was a very low divorce rate...they might have been Communist but they had good family values IMO. From what I understand The fight for human rights is a massive part of Judaism, what say you to this? In 1905 Odessa when in the Russian Empire Jews were targeted by anti Jewish mobs... It was Soviets Jewish and non Jewish whom provided rifles and arms to fellow Jews to protect themselves.


There are self identifying LGBT Orthodox Jews. They do exist, I suppose at this point you would disagree with there lifestyle and you are perhaps praying they return to a so called straight lifestyle involving a man marrying a woman or vs versa? Which brings me to another question, would you say Judaism demands Jewish men and women to marry only by arranged marriage? Can a Jewish man and Woman meet each other perhaps at a bar or supermarket, be romantically with each other for months or years without getting married?

First openly gay Orthodox rabbi ordained in Jerusalem - Jewish Telegraphic Agency

Btw the Gay Rabbi in question, Rabbi Daniel Atwood has studied the Torah, this man knows the Jewish religion.

Daniel is a student at Yeshivat Chovevei Torah Rabbinical School, expecting to be ordained in 2019, and a resident of the vibrant community in Washington Heights, Manhattan. He graduated Summa Cum Laude from the Honors Program at Yeshiva University, with majors in Psychology and Medieval Jewish Studies, where he also served as Managing Editor and Senior Opinions Editor of The Commentator, YU’s newspaper, and was awarded the prestigious Kressel Fellowship for on-campus research in Social Psychology. He is a member of Uri L’tzedek, engaging in social justice activism and teaching. Daniel completed one unit of Clinical Pastoral Education at Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center and led holiday services at Rikers Island Correctional Facility. He is excited for learning about ways to integrate social justice activism into his future rabbinate.

Daniel Atwood – T'ruah

What say you to Rabbi Atwood. Would you say Atwood is not a Rabbi but rather a Rabbi in name only?

As for Rabbi Kook , Rabbi Kook as you perhaps know was a leading Zionist. He was saying basically everyone should be loved. I feel that a man such as Kook would push for a Jewish state that allows equal rights for all including LGBT. Perhaps also Rabbi Kook at the same time would argue that LGBT marriage should not occur under true Judaism but that the Jewish state in pursuit of equality should allow such marriage.

I understand Jerusalem and Israel as we know it today means alot to you as a Jewish man. As a Catholic man, likewise its the Catholic Kingdom of Jerusalem and its courageous and honorable leader Godfrey of Boullion that inspire me to live. In the Catholic Kingdom there was liberalism, diversity, and true faith according to a 12th century Muslim scholar Ibn Jubair. Thats a Muslim scholar praising a Christian Kingdom in the 12th century, thats as non bias as it gets. I believe that otoh some in our world through history and today are trying to tear apart us Jewish and Christian brothers, but that wont happen such a brotherhood has withstood the test of thousands of years.
 
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Jul 2019
107
New Jersey
#69
I respect the fact that many Jewish people fought for the USSR, Soviet Jews 500,000 of them took up arms in WW2 to fight against the Third Reich. My respect for Jewish people is in large part based on this. Which would lead me to ask, what do you think about Communism? And aside from that, how do you feel about the Soviet Jews whether they were religious or not whom took a part in WW2 on the allied side? Keep in mind there was intermarriage in the USSR and there was a very low divorce rate...they might have been Communist but they had good family values IMO. From what I understand The fight for human rights is a massive part of Judaism, what say you to this? In 1905 Odessa when in the Russian Empire Jews were targeted by anti Jewish mobs... It was Soviets Jewish and non Jewish whom provided rifles and arms to fellow Jews to protect themselves.
Allow me to preface my reply by saying that I have absolutely no love for Czarist Russia. They kidnapped young Jewish children, forcibly baptized them, and kept them in the army for 25 years. They instigated deadly pogroms in Odessa, Kishinev, Kiev, and innumerable other localities. They published the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and staged the Beilis Blood Libel. Czarist Russia was an evil regime. That said, the Communists were equally wicked. Yes, many Jews forsook their religion and joined the atheistic Communists, but do you know what those Jews did? They turned on the Jewish religion with a savage fury. They murdered rabbis. They sent countless correligionists to Siberia for teaching their children Torah or keeping the Sabbath. The Yevsektzia (the Jewish department of the USSR) was one of the most implacable foes the Jewish religion has ever faced. The Communists all but eradicated religion from the millions of Jews who lived in Russia; do you really expect me to cheer them on? Of course killing Nazis was a fantastic thing, but that shouldn't diminish our recognition of the Communists' brutal campaign against religion.

You say "From what I understand The fight for human rights is a massive part of Judaism, what say you to this?", I say that Judaism is a religion, not a political program, and definitely not a political program that institutes a mass-murdering dictatorship.

There are self identifying LGBT Orthodox Jews. They do exist, I suppose at this point you would disagree with there lifestyle and you are perhaps praying they return to a so called straight lifestyle involving a man marrying a woman or vs versa? Which brings me to another question, would you say Judaism demands Jewish men and women to marry only by arranged marriage? Can a Jewish man and Woman meet each other perhaps at a bar or supermarket, be romantically with each other for months or years without getting married?
I'm afraid I don't see the connection between opposing homosexual activities and arranging marriages. My marriage wasn't arranged; I met my wife on a vacation. That said, Judaism prohibits all physical contact with the opposite sex before marriage (some are more lenient and permit non-sexual contact). I knew my wife and I went out with her, but I never touched her until after we were married.

First openly gay Orthodox rabbi ordained in Jerusalem - Jewish Telegraphic Agency

Btw the Gay Rabbi in question, Rabbi Daniel Atwood has studied the Torah, this man knows the Jewish religion.

Daniel is a student at Yeshivat Chovevei Torah Rabbinical School, expecting to be ordained in 2019, and a resident of the vibrant community in Washington Heights, Manhattan. He graduated Summa Cum Laude from the Honors Program at Yeshiva University, with majors in Psychology and Medieval Jewish Studies, where he also served as Managing Editor and Senior Opinions Editor of The Commentator, YU’s newspaper, and was awarded the prestigious Kressel Fellowship for on-campus research in Social Psychology. He is a member of Uri L’tzedek, engaging in social justice activism and teaching. Daniel completed one unit of Clinical Pastoral Education at Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center and led holiday services at Rikers Island Correctional Facility. He is excited for learning about ways to integrate social justice activism into his future rabbinate.

Daniel Atwood – T'ruah

What say you to Rabbi Atwood. Would you say Atwood is not a Rabbi but rather a Rabbi in name only?
Yes. I know Yeshivat Chovevei Torah. They aren't interested in God's word. They're interested in liberal politics. Read the man's description, for heaven's sake! YCT has been condemned by both the Rabbinical Council of America and the National Council of Young Israel, and are regarded by most as lying outside the bounds of Orthodoxy. Again, I reiterate my point. Do your homework. Find me some Orthodox figures from before the year 2000 who say that homosexual behavior is OK. There's no such thing. It is unambiguously prohibited. Let's get into scholarship here; this is a history forum.

As for Rabbi Kook , Rabbi Kook as you perhaps know was a leading Zionist. He was saying basically everyone should be loved. I feel that a man such as Kook would push for a Jewish state that allows equal rights for all including LGBT. Perhaps also Rabbi Kook at the same time would argue that LGBT marriage should not occur under true Judaism but that the Jewish state in pursuit of equality should allow such marriage.
This has nothing to do with love. I love my son; I still don't let him play with fire. I love my brother; I wouldn't let him drive drunk from my house. I love my people; I wouldn't give them the wherewithal to flaunt their violation of the Torah's commands in public. This has to do with maintaining the integrity of the Jewish religion and the legitimacy of the Jewish state.

I understand Jerusalem and Israel as we know it today means alot to you as a Jewish man. As a Catholic man, likewise its the Catholic Kingdom of Jerusalem and its courageous and honorable leader Godfrey of Boullion that inspire me to live. In the Catholic Kingdom there was liberalism, diversity, and true faith according to a 12th century Muslim scholar Ibn Jubair. Thats a Muslim scholar praising a Christian Kingdom in the 12th century, thats as non bias as it gets. I believe that otoh some in our world through history and today are trying to tear apart us Jewish and Christian brothers, but that wont happen such a brotherhood has withstood the test of thousands of years.
I, too, hope that Jews and Christians can continue to live in peace as they do today. However, I would point out that when the "courageous and honorable" Crusaders entered Jerusalem they burnt most of the city's Jews alive inside the synagogue. Not to mention the massacres of thousands of Jews in Speyer, Worms, Mainz, Cologne, and Metz as the Crusaders passed through.
 
Dec 2015
3,610
USA
#70
Allow me to preface my reply by saying that I have absolutely no love for Czarist Russia. They kidnapped young Jewish children, forcibly baptized them, and kept them in the army for 25 years. They instigated deadly pogroms in Odessa, Kishinev, Kiev, and innumerable other localities. They published the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and staged the Beilis Blood Libel. Czarist Russia was an evil regime. That said, the Communists were equally wicked. Yes, many Jews forsook their religion and joined the atheistic Communists, but do you know what those Jews did? They turned on the Jewish religion with a savage fury. They murdered rabbis. They sent countless correligionists to Siberia for teaching their children Torah or keeping the Sabbath. The Yevsektzia (the Jewish department of the USSR) was one of the most implacable foes the Jewish religion has ever faced. The Communists all but eradicated religion from the millions of Jews who lived in Russia; do you really expect me to cheer them on? Of course killing Nazis was a fantastic thing, but that shouldn't diminish our recognition of the Communists' brutal campaign against religion.

You say "From what I understand The fight for human rights is a massive part of Judaism, what say you to this?", I say that Judaism is a religion, not a political program, and definitely not a political program that institutes a mass-murdering dictatorship.



I'm afraid I don't see the connection between opposing homosexual activities and arranging marriages. My marriage wasn't arranged; I met my wife on a vacation. That said, Judaism prohibits all physical contact with the opposite sex before marriage (some are more lenient and permit non-sexual contact). I knew my wife and I went out with her, but I never touched her until after we were married.



Yes. I know Yeshivat Chovevei Torah. They aren't interested in God's word. They're interested in liberal politics. Read the man's description, for heaven's sake! YCT has been condemned by both the Rabbinical Council of America and the National Council of Young Israel, and are regarded by most as lying outside the bounds of Orthodoxy. Again, I reiterate my point. Do your homework. Find me some Orthodox figures from before the year 2000 who say that homosexual behavior is OK. There's no such thing. It is unambiguously prohibited. Let's get into scholarship here; this is a history forum.



This has nothing to do with love. I love my son; I still don't let him play with fire. I love my brother; I wouldn't let him drive drunk from my house. I love my people; I wouldn't give them the wherewithal to flaunt their violation of the Torah's commands in public. This has to do with maintaining the integrity of the Jewish religion and the legitimacy of the Jewish state.



I, too, hope that Jews and Christians can continue to live in peace as they do today. However, I would point out that when the "courageous and honorable" Crusaders entered Jerusalem they burnt most of the city's Jews alive inside the synagogue. Not to mention the massacres of thousands of Jews in Speyer, Worms, Mainz, Cologne, and Metz as the Crusaders passed through.
To this day ex Soviet Jews are living in Israel. Leading Communists were Jewish, such as Trotsky and Kaganovich. Hundreds of Jews were officers or in some important position in the Soviet Military during WW2. Not all Soviet Communists were anti religious. In fact many Communists view Jesus as the worlds first Communist leader. Christians view Jesus as a Communist. The notion that Communism is anti religious is wrong because its been proven that Communist religious people have existed in Albania, The USSR, and Yemen just to name a few. Communism has spread to various religious people of the world.

On Multiple Fronts, Russian Jews Reshape Israel

The forgotten Jews who fought the Nazis

The forgotten Jews who fought the Nazis
Jews in Radical Politics | My Jewish Learning

You know alot about Judaism it seems, do you speak fluent Hebrew if I may ask? Would you say in Judaism its a requirement to speak or learn Hebrew. Is Hebrew the language of the earliest Jews or was it a different language?


Even today in Israel many Jews approve of LGBT activity while LGBT marriage is still outlawed. Your right this is a history form, and clearly many Jewish folk are presenting a view saying a LGBT lifestyle is ok. In the US alone over 80% of American Jews approve of LGBT lifestyle. Its a matter of opinion is it not? So in a Proper Jewish state would LBGT lifestyle be allowed because after all we have already seen Rabbis studied in the Torah approve of such lifestyle. I suppose you are saying a Proper Jewish State should have a law similar to Saudi Arabia on marriage, no lgbt marriage and further arrest of LGBT folks living openly? as earlier you provided such folks should keep there lifestyle private.

Jewish American's Social and Political Views

I brought up Godfrey of Bouillon. He is not a figure of intolerance, Britannica and other sights makes no mention of any sort of intolerance on Godfreys part. What do you feel of the famous Rabbi Ovadia Yosef? He had his controversies or at least accusations of intolerance against him. Others including Yosef himself have challenged such claims. Perhaps you can see that some Jewish and Christian people of history have been accused unfairly. And the First Catholic Kingdom of Jerusalem which Godrey founded was later visited by Ibn Jubair the Muslim of which Jubair recorded the Kingdom as a place of tolerance. In any war there is violence, but as for Godfrey and his men, scholars though history have portrayed these men as pious and honorable. It is fair to look into any war for crimes, but wars are violent. The scholars of the so called First Crusade wrote what they saw, and that did not include intolerance or some sort of bloodlust. An actual real scholar, Anna Comnena wrote of the Catholics that sought to bring Jerusalem to the Faith, as good people. Comnena a Byzantine btw, wrote positively of the European Catholic Godfrey of Bouillon.


Godfrey of Bouillon | French noble

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Godfrey of Bouillon

Who was Anna Comnena? Everything You Need to Know

IMO the dark age of Christian people was not during the middle ages but during WW2, on the axis side when millions of Christians supported the Reich, Many millions of Communist and non Communist Christians, Jews and Muslims supported the allied cause..the religious degree varying among the allies but still one can not deny the many people whom identified with a religion both Communist and non Communist.
 
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