justice exists

Rodger

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
6,113
US
#81
Again, a bad lawyer is still a lawyer. Someone may get off, they may plea bargain (the usual route for public defenders) or they fight it and lose. And then what? Do they die? Almost never, as any capital trial almost always has top tier lawyers fighting one another, pro bono, because they're against the death penalty, regardless of the case and evidence and guilt. So worse thing is someone gets life. And yet still alive, still able to appeal, still capable of later being free and even suing the same system that incarcerated them.

Now tell me what happens when you have a tumor growing in your body, and symptoms of cancer, and you go to a doctor and they don't order tests and ignore the symptoms and tell you that you have heartburn or migraines, so by the time you find out its cancer, its stage 4. What happens then? Where is that person's freedom? What about the doctor that screws up the surgery and kills you on the table, because they messed up, like they had dozens of times before, because many doctors have a double digit body count under their belt when it comes to accidentally killing their patients because of malpractice. Where is the freedom then? Where is the freedom for the goddamn idiots who shoved a feeding tube into my mother's lung and temporarily killed her, then tried to lie about and hide it, with it all resulting in her having brain damage? Where was her freedom?

FYI, I've dealt with the legal system before too, on both sides of it (not me personally, I'm conviction free, but a few relatives and close friends have done hard time). Your 10k number for getting off scott free is entirely dependent on crime, location, circumstances, evidence, etc. My uncle blew through a couple hundred grand on a defense, which should have been a slam dunk Not Guilty, and instead did eight years in a max sec state pen.

In life, you get what you pay for. Sometimes. But if you don't like what you get, do something to get more. That's what most people's parents, grandparents, and great grandparents did. They worked their butts off, despite the odds, to get a better life for themselves, or if they couldn't, then they sacrificed for the sake of their kids. They didn't bitch and moan about the unfair system of a country where the poorest people still have it better than like 75% of the world, where the pets have better access to healthcare than like 75% of the world.
You are moving the discussion far from the OP. Talking about what poor people have here has nothing to do with the OP. Stay focused on the issue at hand. Justice, from the root word just means a fair application of laws to all. Influence is usually more important than the evidence, especially at the local or county level. Justice is not blind, sorry. And it is not bitching when you are the one or have a loved one who has been at the wrong end of the system. Sometimes theoretical arguments people offer are just that, an academic exercise that doesn't hit home until they actually live it. Then, let me see somebody who has been wrongly incarcerated or incarcerated disproportionally talk up "bucking up" and accepting like man without complaining.
 
Jul 2016
9,562
USA
#82
You are moving the discussion far from the OP. Talking about what poor people have here has nothing to do with the OP. Stay focused on the issue at hand. Justice, from the root word just means a fair application of laws to all. Influence is usually more important than the evidence, especially at the local or county level. Justice is not blind, sorry. And it is not bitching when you are the one or have a loved one who has been at the wrong end of the system. Sometimes theoretical arguments people offer are just that, an academic exercise that doesn't hit home until they actually live it. Then, let me see somebody who has been wrongly incarcerated or incarcerated disproportionally talk up "bucking up" and accepting like man without complaining.
I'm moving it because my post that you replied to was many pages after the OP, and the conversation had shifted. Besides, the OP's statement was ridiculous and that's why that person got a time out.

And I never said justice is actually blind, its just supposed to be blind. Just like I'm supposed to have all my own organs and not have lost some to cancer. Or like my mom isn't supposed to be mentally impaired because of medical malpractice. Meanwhile, with the legal system, sometimes its good, often times its not. Which is life. Its a human endeavor and I've met few humans I'd ever trust even with my debit card, let alone my life and freedom. But so what? Its better than anything in human history, where someone who won the sperm race and was the first surviving child would sit in absolute power and have ears cut off, have people executed, exiled, whatever. All on a whim and nothing more. At least our system now has the pretext of being better. And while those public defenders do suck, they're still free and they still do actual work for their clients, many of whom are actually guilty.

My point is this: Could of, would of, should of. Life is tough. Quite bitching. If you have issues, fix them instead of complaining. If you're afraid of getting a public defender, get a better job and get more money. Or make your case for pro bono. But let's be real. That all requires effort. Discipline. Hard work. Dedication. Ambition. Its easier to just bitch on Historum...
 
Nov 2016
890
Germany
#83
From your post in the thread something leads me to believe you know the OP personally. If so, can you enlighten me on what was implied by the OP and the idea behind it?
Well, I have two granddaughters about her age, so I just talked to her as if she was one of them. The idea behind it? Look at her necklace... Anyway, I'm sure she's a very intelligent girl with maybe a great future. In younger years I had a girlfriend who was only one year older than her, but less educated, and is now a professor at the University of Dresden.
 
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Rodger

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
6,113
US
#84
I'm moving it because my post that you replied to was many pages after the OP, and the conversation had shifted. Besides, the OP's statement was ridiculous and that's why that person got a time out.

And I never said justice is actually blind, its just supposed to be blind. Just like I'm supposed to have all my own organs and not have lost some to cancer. Or like my mom isn't supposed to be mentally impaired because of medical malpractice. Meanwhile, with the legal system, sometimes its good, often times its not. Which is life. Its a human endeavor and I've met few humans I'd ever trust even with my debit card, let alone my life and freedom. But so what? Its better than anything in human history, where someone who won the sperm race and was the first surviving child would sit in absolute power and have ears cut off, have people executed, exiled, whatever. All on a whim and nothing more. At least our system now has the pretext of being better. And while those public defenders do suck, they're still free and they still do actual work for their clients, many of whom are actually guilty.

My point is this: Could of, would of, should of. Life is tough. Quite bitching. If you have issues, fix them instead of complaining. If you're afraid of getting a public defender, get a better job and get more money. Or make your case for pro bono. But let's be real. That all requires effort. Discipline. Hard work. Dedication. Ambition. Its easier to just bitch on Historum...
I am glad that you see that justice isn't blind in practice. But your answer is to this dilemma is quite philosophical, as in emotionless and cold. Get a job? I know plenty of middle class people who can't afford $10,000 for a great attorney. They work and they always have and they are educated. And who is taking a case pro bono?Attorneys work to eat. Few cases are taken prop bono. Public defenders, for the most part, go through the motions. Do you know how much they make? How Much Money Do Public Defenders Make? Change the system? Are you serious? Try working for the system and see how much influence you have to alter it, except for your own benefit, which is the only thing most people worry about. It's all about who you know. I have seen people who work for the courts have their children given a slap on the wrist by the judge for whom this employee has served for 20 years.
I take it you have never seen the wheels of justice coming off up close and personal. Come back and discuss things with me if you ever do. Then you will find that your simple answer of effort, discipline, hard work and ambition aren't always the answer to fix things.
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
26,630
Italy, Lago Maggiore
#86
In Italy it's the state to give you a lawyer if you cannot afford a good one. This means simply that you will have a poor legal defense ... not because they are not good, but because gaining a little money from the Ministry of Justice they will dedicate a little time to defend you in the trial ... it's a pragmatic limit.

I've pondered this aspect of our Justice System several times. At the end it's a deterrent: you know that if you commit a crime you will have a terrible defense ... avoid to commit a crime!

On the other hand, who can afford a good lawyer doesn't commit little crimes. So let's make them spend 500,000€ in a trial ... even if they won't be condemned, at least they will have contributed to the finances of the country ...
 

Rodger

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
6,113
US
#87
In Italy it's the state to give you a lawyer if you cannot afford a good one. This means simply that you will have a poor legal defense ... not because they are not good, but because gaining a little money from the Ministry of Justice they will dedicate a little time to defend you in the trial ... it's a pragmatic limit.

I've pondered this aspect of our Justice System several times. At the end it's a deterrent: you know that if you commit a crime you will have a terrible defense ... avoid to commit a crime!

On the other hand, who can afford a good lawyer doesn't commit little crimes. So let's make them spend 500,000€ in a trial ... even if they won't be condemned, at least they will have contributed to the finances of the country ...
That is the issue with public defenders. They typically meet with you for the first time about 15 minutes before your trial. No preparation or research. They often don't even know your case, except on a most peripheral level. Not an ideal situation when you are facing a judge who has the power to send you away for years.
 
Nov 2014
1,616
Birmingham, UK
#88
Well, I have two granddaughters about her age, so I just talked to her as if she was one of them. The idea behind it? Look at her necklace... Anyway, I'm sure she's a very intelligent girl with maybe a great future. In younger years I had a girlfriend who was only one year older than her, but less educated, and is now a professor at the University of Dresden.
Your attitude does you a great deal of credit
 
Jul 2016
9,562
USA
#90
That is the issue with public defenders. They typically meet with you for the first time about 15 minutes before your trial. No preparation or research. They often don't even know your case, except on a most peripheral level. Not an ideal situation when you are facing a judge who has the power to send you away for years.
That's for low level stuff. Drug courts, misdemeanor, maybe some felony. And yes, they most often want to take a plea, which usually ends with the client getting some time instead of a lot of time, because most of the time there is a strong enough case against their client that fighting it is stupid. For serious felony jury cases, the public defenders are doing more work, getting more face to face. On top of that, jailhouse lawyers are famous for giving additional help, and there is no shortage to access to legal support in many jails across America, allowing individuals to look up the laws in question, that they are charged with, to deal with them.

Its still no different than any facet in life. You get what you pay for. A basic level criminal defense attorney is $100/hr. Nobody but the most poor in society can't afford at least some help from them. You bring up middle class. They all have the ability to afford them. Middle Class income in the US is $40,500-122,000/yr. Don't tell me they don't have the means to cough up 1/3 the amount of a new car, or a really good two week family vacation, to get out of a 10-20 bit in prison. That's simply not true.
 
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