Karl Marx's contribution to the modern anti-semitism (and racism)

Oct 2013
12,770
Europix
#31
The main topic is about influence, but In that exact conversation the subject was both ethnicity and influence.
Really?

Here is the post You were replying to:
As people have suggested, it’s unlikely Marx contributed much to anything at all with antisemitism given his strong Jewish following in the near future. Also, the chief forces of antisemitism in Europe associated Marxian theory with Judaism.

The primary influencers of antisemitism were the fascists. If we want to get into which philosopher contributed the most: Friedrich Nietzsche during the time when he was still in awe by Richard Wagner and was into dramatic nationalistic and anti-Jewish overstatements; and a strong influencer of nationalism and fascism.

That said, I doubt either Wagner or Nietche would have supported the extremism of the 1930s and 40s.
Would You be so kind as to show the passage were Theodoric is discussing ethnicity?
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,533
Lago Maggiore, Italy
#32
Now ...

Ignoring rhetorical posts, probably Marx is suffering the same misunderstanding that Luther suffered: Marx, because of his own ideological approach to the growing industrial society [let's keep in mind his analysis of the society where he lived], considered religion generally a problem. I guess he saw Judaism as a particular problem. May be even worse than a state religion. A Marxist tends to be anti-religious, at least at social / political level. So I suspect that this has generated the impression that Marx had something of the historical Anti-Judaism. But he was, in the same way, Anti Christian, Anti Buddhist, Anti Hindu, Anti Muslim ...

I quote the link in the OP

What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money.…. Money is the jealous god of Israel, in face of which no other god may exist. Money degrades all the gods of man – and turns them into commodities…. The bill of exchange is the real god of the Jew. His god is only an illusory bill of exchange…. The chimerical nationality of the Jew is the nationality of the merchant, of the man of money in general.
What's Anti-Semite in this? I see a negative evaluation of a religious ideology.

He thought the same about the other religions [he was the first Marxist!] ... I can quote "The Holy Family"

The Jews (like the Christians) are fully politically emancipated
in various states. Both Jews and Christians are far from being
humanly emancipated. Hence there must be a difference between
political and human emancipation.
This work looks well balanced about the matter: Marx on the Jewish Question
 
Oct 2013
12,770
Europix
#33
This work looks well balanced about the matter: Marx on the Jewish Question
Thank You for the link. I've read the first paragraphs and it's starting well: it's talking about Marx and Bauer.

Marx's paper is a reply (and a critic) of Bauer's position on the matter.

Before talking about the anti-Semitism, that exists or not as such in Marx's work, I think we ought to read it. Also Bauer's work which he was replying to.

We ought to look at the ideological/political context, not forgetting that Marx had 25 years, and he was at the beginning of his "road" towards an unified, universal socio-economical theory. Zur Judenfrage being what it could be considered one of the first steps made towards his theory.

Out of curiosity: how many of us had red Marx's and Bauer's "On the Jewish question"?

I'll start: I didn't red Bauer.
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,533
Lago Maggiore, Italy
#34
Thank You for the link. I've read the first paragraphs and it's starting well: it's talking about Marx and Bauer.

Marx's paper is a reply (and a critic) of Bauer's position on the matter.

Before talking about the anti-Semitism, that exists or not as such in Marx's work, I think we ought to read it. Also Bauer's work which he was replying to.

We ought to look at the ideological/political context, not forgetting that Marx had 25 years, and he was at the beginning of his "road" towards an unified, universal socio-economical theory. Zur Judenfrage being what it could be considered one of the first steps made towards his theory.

Out of curiosity: how many of us had red Marx's and Bauer's "On the Jewish question"?

I'll start: I didn't red Bauer.
I studied Marx because of my economical education [when I was still studying in Italy Socialism and Communism were still licit alternative to Capitalism ...], but I have never read his works entirely ... and it's known I don't share his visions and ideological stances.
 
Oct 2013
12,770
Europix
#35
I studied Marx because of my economical education [when I was still studying in Italy Socialism and Communism were still licit alternative to Capitalism ...], but I have never read his works entirely ... and it's known I don't share his visions and ideological stances.
Bof-bof ....

It's not that much about being licit or not, or agreeing with.

I just believe that if we talk about Marx being or not anti-Semitic in his Zur Judenfrage, well, it's better to read it, and not just comments upon.
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,533
Lago Maggiore, Italy
#36
Bof-bof ....

It's not that much about being licit or not, or agreeing with.

I just believe that if we talk about Marx being or not anti-Semitic in his Zur Judenfrage, well, it's better to read it, and not just comments upon.
It would be even better to read the original work in German [I could do it, actually, but I've never done this ... Italians tend to read translations of foreign works, relying on translators].
 
Sep 2012
3,514
Bulgaria
#39
The term antisemite existed since the second half of the 18th century. But as a phenomenon, it always existed, read about anti-Jewish pogroms in medieval and early modern Europe.
There is a difference between the christian aversion toward the jewish religion, so called anti-judaism and the modern antisemitism, based on racial or ethnic ground (your OP - racism?). The latter appeared after the work of Marx along with the invention of the very word antisemite. Martin Luther, from the AlpinLuke's post#10, became disappointed when the German jews didnt seize the opportunity to study the scriptures & accept Jesus and then he wrote his 'Against the Jews' / his animosity was based purely on religious ground. Antisemitism (on ethnic ground) is a late XIXth century 'invention'.

@AlpinLuke Thanks for the link.
 
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Dec 2011
1,276
#40
Now ...

Ignoring rhetorical posts, probably Marx is suffering the same misunderstanding that Luther suffered: Marx, because of his own ideological approach to the growing industrial society [let's keep in mind his analysis of the society where he lived], considered religion generally a problem. I guess he saw Judaism as a particular problem. May be even worse than a state religion. A Marxist tends to be anti-religious, at least at social / political level. So I suspect that this has generated the impression that Marx had something of the historical Anti-Judaism. But he was, in the same way, Anti Christian, Anti Buddhist, Anti Hindu, Anti Muslim ...

I quote the link in the OP
He didn't treat Judaism the same way he treated all the other religions. Marx clearly entertains anti-Jewish tropes that go beyond what he insinuates for Christianity, for example. There is an obvious linking of Jews to what he deems the detestable aspects of modern, bourgeois society.



What's Anti-Semite in this? I see a negative evaluation of a religious ideology.
He thought the same about the other religions [he was the first Marxist!] ... I can quote "The Holy Family"
It is antisemitic because "Jewish ideology" is evidently not "huckstering" or "money". At best, we can say that the practical rules some Jews inferred from their religious doctrine for their everyday life have aided them in capturing positions in society that allowed them to exercise a level of financial power. To put it bluntly, neither is what Marx describes contained in Judaism, nor is it a necessary outflow from Jewish religious doctrine to everyday behavior of Jews. This is only a religious critique on the surface, his actual critique of Judaism, and this is perfectly visible in your quotes, is a social critique of bourgeois society and he projects all its most vile aspects on the Jews. They become the archetype of the evil Capitalist based on their "religion".
Have you even read this? Marx himself states that:
We are trying to break with the theological formulation of the question. For us, the question of the Jew’s capacity for emancipation becomes the question: What particular social element has to be overcome in order to abolish Judaism? For the present-day Jew’s capacity for emancipation is the relation of Judaism to the emancipation of the modern world. This relation necessarily results from the special position of Judaism in the contemporary enslaved world.

Let us consider the actual, worldly Jew – not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew.

Let us not look for the secret of the Jew in his religion, but let us look for the secret of his religion in the real Jew.
He is overly explicit here, he wants to look for "the secret of his religion in the real Jew", to answer the question "What particular social element has to be overcome in order to abolish Judaism?". And the immediate next sentences are the ones you posted in the above:

What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money.

Very well then! Emancipation from huckstering and money, consequently from practical, real Judaism, would be the self-emancipation of our time.
He is evidently not concerned with Judaism as a religion, but with a crude version of "real Judaism", i.e. of what he perceives to be the essence of what it means to be a Jew in modern society, and this essence contains what makes this society so detestable, hence:
We recognize in Judaism, therefore, a general anti-social element of the present time, an element which through historical development – to which in this harmful respect the Jews have zealously contributed – has been brought to its present high level, at which it must necessarily begin to disintegrate.

In the final analysis, the emancipation of the Jews is the emancipation of mankind from Judaism.
The Jews are portrayed as "guilty" for the development of the harmful aspects of modern society, as they "zealously contributed" to it. The emancipation of the the Jews thus is their ceasing to exist as Jews, i.e. as huckstering, money-grabbing "real Jews".

This is pure, old antisemitism.
 
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