"Korea's 1st kingdom ruled today's Beijing"

Haakbus

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,817
United States
We know very little about Gojoseon.

To my knowledge, evidence for its existence appears in contemporary records from the 4th century BC onward. It was almost certainly little more than a federation of chiefdoms with a first among equals at its head. Wiman from Yan usurped the throne in 200 BC, but his grandson, Ugeo, still had a native name, and not a Chinese name.

I think that the culture and language of Gojoseon were most likely Koreanic, that is, related to the more recent Korean culture and language but not Korean proper.
 
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Jul 2013
393
USA
Does Gojoseon even exist? And if it did exist, how do you know that those people identified themselves as Joseon or as Korean?

You're making a lot of random claims, but so far I haven't seen you providing a single piece of evidence.

Are you seriously now questioning the existence of Gojoseon?
When it was the chinese that kept records? Can you not read your own country's writing?

The Zhanguoce, Shanhaijing, and Shiji refers to Joseon as a region, until the text Shiji began referring it as a country from 195 BC onwards.

So that means something happened 195 BC to make the chinese refer to Gojoseon as a country. Most likely a unification of proto Korean tribes.

Seo and Kang (2002) believe the Dangun myth is based on integration of two different tribes, an invasive sky-worshipping bronze age tribe and a native bear-worshipping neolithic tribe, that lead to the foundation of Gojoseon.[6] Lee K. B. (1984) believes 'Dangun-wanggeom' was a title borne by successive leaders of Gojoseon.[7]

This could well be the explanation for the land being called a country. A symbiosis of 2 tribes, 1 being mainly Altaic and the other tribe being native Tungusic tribes or earlier Altaics.
"Records of that time mention the hostility between the feudal state in Northern China and the "confederated" kingdom of Gojoseon, and notably, a plan to attack the Yan beyond the Liao River frontier. The confrontation led to the decline and eventual downfall of Gojoseon, described in Yan records as "arrogant" and "cruel". But the ancient kingdom also appears as a prosperous Bronze Age civilization, with a complex social structure, including a class of horse-riding warriors who contributed to the development of Gojoseon, particularly the northern expansion[17] into most of the Liaodong basin."
 

Haakbus

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,817
United States
I think it's highly unlikely that Gojoseon controlled any territory northwest of the Liao river.

However, I'm willing to believe it if reliable evidence appears.
 
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Haakbus

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,817
United States
Are you seriously now questioning the existence of Gojoseon?
When it was the chinese that kept records? Can you not read your own country's writing?

The Zhanguoce, Shanhaijing, and Shiji refers to Joseon as a region, until the text Shiji began referring it as a country from 195 BC onwards.

So that means something happened 195 BC to make the chinese refer to Gojoseon as a country. Most likely a unification of proto Korean tribes.

Seo and Kang (2002) believe the Dangun myth is based on integration of two different tribes, an invasive sky-worshipping bronze age tribe and a native bear-worshipping neolithic tribe, that lead to the foundation of Gojoseon.[6] Lee K. B. (1984) believes 'Dangun-wanggeom' was a title borne by successive leaders of Gojoseon.[7]

This could well be the explanation for the land being called a country. A symbiosis of 2 tribes, 1 being mainly Altaic and the other tribe being native Tungusic tribes or earlier Altaics.
"Records of that time mention the hostility between the feudal state in Northern China and the "confederated" kingdom of Gojoseon, and notably, a plan to attack the Yan beyond the Liao River frontier. The confrontation led to the decline and eventual downfall of Gojoseon, described in Yan records as "arrogant" and "cruel". But the ancient kingdom also appears as a prosperous Bronze Age civilization, with a complex social structure, including a class of horse-riding warriors who contributed to the development of Gojoseon, particularly the northern expansion[17] into most of the Liaodong basin."
I agree. Why do people doubt the existence of Gojoseon when it is recorded in contemporary Chinese records?

I believe Wiman from Yan usurped the throne of Gojoseon around 195 BC. Exactly why the Chinese begin to speak of it as a state I don't know for certain, but either Wiman centralized the government more or the Chinese began to think of it as such once a Sinitic man took control, or when more became known about the nation. I don't believe the Gija/Jizi story, mostly because Gojoseon almost certainly didn't exist at that time.

But when Gojoseon fell in 108 BC, some of the "nobles" played a major part. This is just my opinion, but I think they were probably warlords/chieftains that made up the federation, with the "king" having power over the others.
 
Jul 2013
393
USA
I agree. Why do people doubt the existence of Gojoseon when it is recorded in contemporary Chinese records?

I believe Wiman from Yan usurped the throne of Gojoseon around 195 BC. Exactly why the Chinese begin to speak of it as a state I don't know for certain, but either Wiman centralized the government more or the Chinese began to think of it as such once a Sinitic man took control, or when more became known about the nation. I don't believe the Gija/Jizi story, mostly because Gojoseon almost certainly didn't exist at that time.

But when Gojoseon fell in 108 BC, some of the "nobles" played a major part. This is just my opinion, but I think they were probably warlords/chieftains that made up the federation, with the "king" having power over the others.
Yes your right.

Im a little out of it today. I was talking about the founding of Gojoseon being a pairing of tribes.
 

Haakbus

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,817
United States
Yes your right.

Im a little out of it today. I was talking about the founding of Gojoseon being a pairing of tribes.
It's quite possible that Gojoseon originated as a federation of two tribes, then more and more joined as time went on. But we should be careful about reading too deeply into ancient legends.
 
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Dec 2011
3,492
Mountains and Jungles of Southern China
Even if it did exist, it was probably just some confederations of different tribes, and its territory was largely limited to the korean peninsula.

There's no way to show that they already had a single unified national or cultural identity at that time. It's very unlikely.
 
Feb 2011
1,018
We know very little about Gojoseon.

To my knowledge, evidence for its existence appears in contemporary records from the 4th century BC onward. It was almost certainly little more than a federation of chiefdoms with a first among equals at its head. Wiman from Yan usurped the throne in 200 BC, but his grandson, Ugeo, still had a native name, and not a Chinese name.

I think that the culture and language of Gojoseon were most likely Koreanic, that is, related to the more recent Korean culture and language but not Korean proper.
This is actually the flimsiest of arguments when it comes to Gojoseon. The fact of the matter is, there are no records of the Gojoseon language. The first records of Koreanic are tentatively from the Three Kingdoms period. The exact dating & placement is still contested among linguists, but it is in the vicinity of the Korean peninsula. Whether Gojoseon's elite language was an earlier prototype of this language vs. a different language that was displaced by Koreanic is an open problem. It's not though language displacement was rare in this area of the world - simply look at the case of Japonic, which used to be located in the Korean peninsula before it was displaced there by Koreanic, and in its turn displaced the languages of the Jomon Japanese when it migrated to Japan.
 
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heavenlykaghan

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
4,563
So you think a massive number of people started to believe, even the Ming started to believe, Koreans were descended from ancient Joseon, with no evidence whatsoever. Maybe rationality isn't your strong suit.
Maybe this might come as a shock to you, but history is full of misconceptions that are held to be true. Turks thinking Xiongnu were their ancestors, and Thais thinking that they were descended from the Kingdom of Nanzhao are just some examples of this. These were also accepted by the people at large and still believed by the masses of these countries, but today, we know they are not true and we even know exactly why and when they are constructed. If you are naive enough to believe in something just because it became a tradition, you clearly shouldn't pursue a historical career.
 

heavenlykaghan

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
4,563
Gu Chaoxian absolutely exist, but contemporary Chinese sources also clearly stated that their king was not a native and was descended from the Shang kings. We also have all the evidence that the kingdom originated from Liaoxi and Northern Hebei, so it probably didn't start out as a Korean kingdom at all, but slowly conquered northern Korea, the language of which they spoke we do not even know.