Largest possible Israel?

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
20,960
SoCal
#1
What's the largest possible size that Israel could have realistically become?

For the record, you could assume that there was either no Holocaust or a smaller Holocaust in this scenario if this will result in a larger Israel in the long(er)-run.

I want to try figure out what the maximum realistic size for a Jewish state in the Middle East in the present-day is going to be. Also, for the record, the "point of departure" (from real life) for this scenario is 1850 or later.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
20,960
SoCal
#2
In 1948, were any prominent Zionists actually interested in expanding beyond the Palestine Mandate borders? If so, where were they interested in expanding into? The Sinai Peninsula? The Golan Heights? Jordan? Somewhere else?
 

stevev

Ad Honorem
Apr 2017
3,415
Las Vegas, NV USA
#3


This is one concept of "Greater Israel" attributed to early 20th Century Zionists when the Ottoman Empire still controlled most of the area. It's clearly not viable today even with the presumptions stated. I understand the present government is considering annexing the West Bank. If that eventually happens Israel will have reached it's largest practical size. Any further expansion will overtax the country's resources in trying to subjugate hostile populations and defend against external forces IMO.
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
26,829
Italy, Lago Maggiore
#4


This is one concept of "Greater Israel" attributed to early 20th Century Zionists when the Ottoman Empire still controlled most of the area. It's clearly not viable today even with the presumptions stated. I understand the present government is considering annexing the West Bank. If that eventually happens Israel will have reached it's largest practical size. Any further expansion will overtax the country's resources in trying to subjugate hostile populations and defend against external forces IMO.
That was mere propaganda. The so called "Greater Israel" wasn't. The Jewish People [a part some loonies, but also among Jews there are loonies as in any other people] has always had a clear idea of where the Holy Land [the promised one] was: in Canaan. The most religious ones probably still make reference to the Scriptures to try and figure out the dimensions of this Promised Land.

Here you can see the most quoted options: Terra di Israele - Wikipedia
 
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stevev

Ad Honorem
Apr 2017
3,415
Las Vegas, NV USA
#5
That was mere propaganda. The so called "Greater Israel" wasn't. The Jewish People [a part some loonies, but also among Jews there are loonies as in any other people] has always had a clear idea of where the Holy Land [the promised one] was: in Canaan. The most religious ones probably still make reference to the Scriptures to try and figure out the dimensions of this Promised Land.

Here you can see the most quoted options: Terra di Israele - Wikipedia
Of course. ^This was approximately the Kingdom of David and Solomon . The OP suggested more ambitious scenarios. In fact I don't think Britain and France would have given up most of the land they took in the Mideast for a Jewish State (from the Nile to the Euphrates) post WWI but I suppose they could have. On the other hand , if there were no Holocaust, it's not clear a Jewish state in Palestine would have been created at all. Yes there was the Balfour declaration, but that might not have been enough.
 
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Likes: Futurist
Mar 2019
1,535
KL
#6
Israel is more about colonising and settling like what europeans did to americas than anything else, its not like russia claiming Crimea since it was part of russia cultural influence, russia doesnt need to settle russians in Crimea and claim the territory. But practically every where Israel boundaries expand, mostly that land has been reclaimed foreign settlers, this exercise was used by europeans in the americas and australia and only has been repeated in israel in the old world.

regards
 
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Linschoten

Ad Honoris
Aug 2010
16,205
Welsh Marches
#7
You obviously don't know much about the history of Crimea, even at the end of the 19th Century Russians made up less than a third of the population of the land, and there were more Crimean Tatars (who now make up barely more than 10%). The Russians didn't even control it until it was conquered by them in 1783. Classic example of western imperialism (or any other kind of imperialism, that was the way of the world just about everywhere).
 
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AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
26,829
Italy, Lago Maggiore
#8
Of course. ^This was approximately the Kingdom of David and Solomon . The OP suggested more ambitious scenarios. In fact I don't think Britain and France would have given up most of the land they took in the Mideast for a Jewish State (from the Nile to the Euphrates) post WWI but I suppose they could have. On the other hand , if there were no Holocaust, it's not clear a Jewish state in Palestine would have been created at all. Yes there was the Balfour declaration, but that might not have been enough.
Already the traditional land of the tribes was a remarkable goal as for territorial expansion of a possible Israel in 1948. To think to a larger state was an utopia [a part being out of the Tradition].

Without the acceleration caused by the Holocaust we would have seen the Zionist movement taking advantage from the disappearance of the European colonial influence in Middle East, with its new friends: US and USSR supporting the Jews about the creation of a state in the area. US and USSR had an interest in common: to have an ally in such a strategical area and to kick UK [and France] out of ME. The process would have been slower [and probably this would have been even positive, generating less reactions by the Arab populations], but we would have seen an Israel anyway.

How much big?

Mah, a possibility [a variant] was that the Americans persuaded the Christians in South Lebanon to stay with the Jews, but such an Israel would have really looked like a Crusader state ... So, realistically, I think it would haven't been larger than the present one. Probably more little.
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
20,960
SoCal
#9
That was mere propaganda. The so called "Greater Israel" wasn't. The Jewish People [a part some loonies, but also among Jews there are loonies as in any other people] has always had a clear idea of where the Holy Land [the promised one] was: in Canaan. The most religious ones probably still make reference to the Scriptures to try and figure out the dimensions of this Promised Land.

Here you can see the most quoted options: Terra di Israele - Wikipedia
The map that you linked to shows parts of the Sinai, Lebanon, and Syria as a part of Israel, though. Did Zionists ever claim to capture these territories as well (I mean plan ahead of time and permanently capture these territories--as opposed to merely using these territories as bargaining chips)?
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
20,960
SoCal
#10


This is one concept of "Greater Israel" attributed to early 20th Century Zionists when the Ottoman Empire still controlled most of the area. It's clearly not viable today even with the presumptions stated. I understand the present government is considering annexing the West Bank. If that eventually happens Israel will have reached it's largest practical size. Any further expansion will overtax the country's resources in trying to subjugate hostile populations and defend against external forces IMO.
Such a Jewish state would have required so much more ethnic cleansing if it would have wanted to have any semblance of internal stability and avoid being an apartheid state. :(
 

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