Lawrence of Arabia - "You know what they'll do to him if they catch him alive"

Mar 2016
819
Eindhoven
I am glad that we are at this point, where you couldn't find a scholarly source to back your claims, instead posted a random Google search. Let me first note that this Google query doesn't return an article with historical context. In fact, it doesn't even return an article with contemporary context, saving Diyarbakir Prison. As I said, national/ethnic feelings need to be dropped here. If we are to ever start a discussion about "moral high grounds", Europeans/Christians (as you put it) are bound have problems, even in 20th century.

Turks abused their prisoners, but I doubt there is much difference compared to Europeans.
 

aggienation

Ad Honorem
Jul 2016
9,813
USA
I am glad that we are at this point, where you couldn't find a scholarly source to back your claims, instead posted a random Google search. Let me first note that this Google query doesn't return an article with historical context. In fact, it doesn't even return an article with contemporary context, saving Diyarbakir Prison. As I said, national/ethnic feelings need to be dropped here. If we are to ever start a discussion about "moral high grounds", Europeans/Christians (as you put it) are bound have problems, even in 20th century.

Turks abused their prisoners, but I doubt there is much difference compared to Europeans.
Just for WW1, there are TE Lawrence's account of being tortured, to include sexually by the Turks, and in addition there are the numerous accounts from the survivors of the siege of Kut who were also tortured and buggered as if it was a sport.

If you want to claim that Westerners at this point (1914-beyond) were not always kind to their prisoners, of course you have a case because it was true. They were often even torturing prisoners. But they weren't commonly raping male prisoners, and that was something that the Turks were known for at the time. And is it surprising? Not in the least, any peoples who sequester their women isolating them from the men have issues with rampant homosexuality. The behavior is still popular today in the Middle East and various other spots in South/SE Asia, to not only include homosexual acts but also Pederasty. Turkey reformed itself greatly since the 1920s (not so great lately, but that's another subject), so probably doesn't do it anymore, but even the great Attaturk as a young officer in the army kept a small hidden knife just to protect his virtue from his fellow male soldiers (source).
 
Mar 2016
819
Eindhoven
Just for WW1, there are TE Lawrence's account of being tortured, to include sexually by the Turks, and in addition there are the numerous accounts from the survivors of the siege of Kut who were also tortured and buggered as if it was a sport.

If you want to claim that Westerners at this point (1914-beyond) were not always kind to their prisoners, of course you have a case because it was true. They were often even torturing prisoners. But they weren't commonly raping male prisoners, and that was something that the Turks were known for at the time. The behavior is still popular today in the Middle East and various other spots in South/SE Asia, to not only include homosexual acts but also Pederasty. Turkey reformed itself greatly since the 1920s (not so great lately, but that's another subject), so probably doesn't do it anymore, but even the great Attaturk as a young officer in the army kept a small hidden knife just to protect his virtue from his fellow male soldiers (source).
Never heard of widespread male raping within Turkish Army before. I will investigate this, starting with this Ataturk line. Can you link sources regarding siege of Kut? I know a large group of British soldiers were taken as prisoner there.

And is it surprising? Not in the least, any peoples who sequester their women isolating them from the men have issues with rampant homosexuality.
Let's keep this discussion proper. Source?
 
Last edited:

aggienation

Ad Honorem
Jul 2016
9,813
USA
Never heard of widespread male raping within Turkish Army before. I will investigate this, starting with this Ataturk line. Can you link sources regarding siege of Kut? I know a large group of British soldiers were taken as prisoner there.
I'm sure you've never heard of it, which is why you probably should conduct more research, without going into it with a massive nationalist bias attempting to disprove stuff you've never heard about beforehand.

Let's keep this discussion proper. Source?
The discussion is proper.

A source for what? The study of human sexuality fills entire books. Anthropology and cultural anthropology does too. I'm not typing out the bibliography from libraries worth of books for you just because you've never heard of it.

Being attracted to members of the same sex didn't start in the 20th century, its been around since humans have existed. There have been entire cultures whose males have predominately favored having sex with other men, even with boys. This is historical fact. And there is one common theme among them all, any peoples in the history of humanity that sequestered/hid women and did not allow men free access to the women for sexual pleasure, suffered from rampant homosexuality. Ancient Greeks, Celts, Persians, Samurai, Victorian school boys, certain MENA and Asian cultures, look no further than "Gay for the Stay" culture in modern jails and prisons in most countries of the world, the list is endless. Deny men access to mature women, they'll have sex with something else. If Turks aren't doing it now, okay, but they used to back in the early 20th century, and often these were perpetrated not only among their own but among prisoners of war.

Every single one of these is easily sourced by a 30 second jaunt on Google.
 
Mar 2016
819
Eindhoven
@aggienation
Your posts are full with logical fallacies. It's a bit tiring to respond. I think I will stop here. I would still appreciate if you can link survivors of Kut prisoners and their records of rapes.
 
Last edited:
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
Interesting comments about the torture of prisoners.

Of course civilised countries such as the US don't (didn't ) do that. Right.

During the US civil war, there were few provisions for or proper ammenities for the 400,000 prisoners prisoners of war. (on both sides)

These days it's much more civilised; Suspected terrorist can find themselves in Guantamo Bay, where they will be water boarded (at least) If really unlucky they are 'rendered' to other countries , such as Egypt , who who lack qualms about beating the crap out of prisoners.

American Civil War prison camps - Wikipedia


Chivalry seems have to grown from the tradition of 'courtly love', possibly originating in early medieval Indian courts

Chivalric behaviour only extended to ones aristocratic /noble peers. It most certainly did not extend to peasants and other lesser mortals. Perhaps have a look at the behaviour of European knights during say the Crusades.( 1095-1099,1147-14910 ) It was common to slaughter the entire population of a vanquished city. there was also the common medieval practice of going around a battle field after battle, killing enemy wounded, except of course if they were a person who could be ransomed.

Good point about Bushido; I have never understood why Japanese were executed as war criminals; Japan had not signed the Geneva convention AND Bushido was the basis of Japanese military culture, beginning during the Shogunate. There was no concept of 'honourable surrender'.

"Bushidō(武士道, "the way of warriors")is a Japanesecollective term for the many codes of honour and ideals that dictated the samuraiway of life,[1]loosely analogous to the concept of chivalryin Europe.[2]

The "way" originates from the samuraimoral values, most commonly stressing some combination of sincerity, frugality, loyalty, martial artsmastery, and honour until death. Born from Neo-Confucianismduring times of peace in the Edo period(1600–1878) and following Confuciantexts, while also being influenced by Shintoand Zen Buddhism, allowing the violent existence of the samuraito be tempered by wisdom, patience and serenity. Bushidōdeveloped between the 16th and 20th centuries, debated by pundits who believed they were building on a legacy dating back to the 10th century, although some scholars have noted that the term bushidōitself is "rarely attested in pre-modern literature".[3]

Under the Tokugawa shogunate, some aspects of warrior values became formalized into Japanese feudal law.["

Bushido - Wikipedia


I've never heard of the 'goolie chit'. I've read a couple of John Masters books (Coromandel' and The Deceivers) He wrote very entertaining novels, but I would not be comfortable citing him as prime source.Be very invested to learn about other sources for the claim of 'goolie chits'.
 

Earl_of_Rochester

Ad Honoris
Feb 2011
13,609
Perambulating in St James' Park
This is from my post back in January discussing something similar.

Dancing boys of Afghanistan

"The homo-erotic debauchery of the Levant and Middle East has been a bit of an in joke in the Western world for quite a while, though it's less common nowadays due to political correctness. There's plenty of sources going all the way back to the Crusaders which suggest that the Arabs took young boys to use in brothels. The French also got quite a rude awakening when they were sodomised by Bedouin after thieir business in Egypt.

"Fear of sodomy, which can be found throughout eighteenth century French literature, served to reinforce European notions of Oriental depravity and no doubt increased the disdain of the troops for the inhabitants of the country"

Napoleon: Path to Power 1769 - 1799. Philip Dwyer: Page 363


Even Errol Flynn's biography from the 30s mentions going to a brothel in Morocco and doing the do with young boys. Perhaps it's a result of a largely conservative society with very repressive views on sexual freedom? As a sidenote, I also believe that sexual repression tends towards violence and religious fervour so that may explain a few other things too.


"The queerest place we were in was in Marrakesh, in French Morocco, a male whorehouse. Marrakesh is a bizarre place anyway. I was under the impression I was going to a bordello. So was Koets. Inside wc found it was all boys. Big rich Arab sheiks and others picked out their boys from a line-up of dancers. The boys would swing their hips and twitch the wrist. They were homos for that section of old Marrakesh who were only interested in young boys. It was all a forthright, blunt exposition of that kind of sexuality in a place approved of in that society. In any other country they would all have been scooped up by the police in no time and carted off to jail. To me that sight was horrible, but, as the saying goes, one man’s meat is another’s j)oison, and we must remember Ancient Greece and the epoch of Pericles, even Socrates."

- My Wicked, Wicked Ways. Errol Flynn. Page 174"

I don't think aggienation is being too far-fetched with his claims. There's plenty of evidence for homosexual behaviour in enclosed male societies. Take away the females and guys will do anything, gaols around the world are proof of that.
 

Earl_of_Rochester

Ad Honoris
Feb 2011
13,609
Perambulating in St James' Park
Interesting comments about the torture of prisoners.

Of course civilised countries such as the US don't (didn't ) do that. Right.

During the US civil war, there were few provisions for or proper ammenities for the 400,000 prisoners prisoners of war. (on both sides)

These days it's much more civilised; Suspected terrorist can find themselves in Guantamo Bay, where they will be water boarded (at least) If really unlucky they are 'rendered' to other countries , such as Egypt , who who lack qualms about beating the crap out of prisoners.

American Civil War prison camps - Wikipedia


Chivalry seems have to grown from the tradition of 'courtly love', possibly originating in early medieval Indian courts

Chivalric behaviour only extended to ones aristocratic /noble peers. It most certainly did not extend to peasants and other lesser mortals. Perhaps have a look at the behaviour of European knights during say the Crusades.( 1095-1099,1147-14910 ) It was common to slaughter the entire population of a vanquished city. there was also the common medieval practice of going around a battle field after battle, killing enemy wounded, except of course if they were a person who could be ransomed.

Good point about Bushido; I have never understood why Japanese were executed as war criminals; Japan had not signed the Geneva convention AND Bushido was the basis of Japanese military culture, beginning during the Shogunate. There was no concept of 'honourable surrender'.

"Bushidō(武士道, "the way of warriors")is a Japanesecollective term for the many codes of honour and ideals that dictated the samuraiway of life,[1]loosely analogous to the concept of chivalryin Europe.[2]

The "way" originates from the samuraimoral values, most commonly stressing some combination of sincerity, frugality, loyalty, martial artsmastery, and honour until death. Born from Neo-Confucianismduring times of peace in the Edo period(1600–1878) and following Confuciantexts, while also being influenced by Shintoand Zen Buddhism, allowing the violent existence of the samuraito be tempered by wisdom, patience and serenity. Bushidōdeveloped between the 16th and 20th centuries, debated by pundits who believed they were building on a legacy dating back to the 10th century, although some scholars have noted that the term bushidōitself is "rarely attested in pre-modern literature".[3]

Under the Tokugawa shogunate, some aspects of warrior values became formalized into Japanese feudal law.["

Bushido - Wikipedia


I've never heard of the 'goolie chit'. I've read a couple of John Masters books (Coromandel' and The Deceivers) He wrote very entertaining novels, but I would not be comfortable citing him as prime source.Be very invested to learn about other sources for the claim of 'goolie chits'.

They're fairly common if you read anything about air ops over the Middle East or North Africa. Blood chit - Wikipedia
With regards to Japan, I think their behaviour towards PoWs, civilians, women and medical personnel would be more than enough to condemn their disgraceful behaviour in WW2.
 

Linschoten

Ad Honoris
Aug 2010
16,217
Welsh Marches
"we must remember Ancient Greece and the epoch of Pericles, even Socrates " - I didn't realize that Errol Flyn was such a philosopher!
 

aggienation

Ad Honorem
Jul 2016
9,813
USA
They're fairly common if you read anything about air ops over the Middle East or North Africa. Blood chit - Wikipedia
With regards to Japan, I think their behaviour towards PoWs, civilians, women and medical personnel would be more than enough to condemn their disgraceful behaviour in WW2.
Japanese war conduct of the early to mid 20th Century wasn't Bushido, it was Yamato-gokoro, a warped bastardization promoted long after Samurai culture had been wiped off the face of the Earth that emphasized a much more bloodthirsty version of Bushido, while promoting nationalism, death in service, and applied to everyone, not just the warrior elite. This is why even in the Russo-Japanese War in the early 20th century the Japanese were actually said to have treated POWs very well, because the Yamato-gokoro nonsense didn't become popular for about a decade or more later.

Think of it like the ISIS movement. "Normal" people conducted unspeakable acts because somebody duped them into believing that the Koran told them that God wanted them to light prisoners on fire, or toss gays off of tall building, or blow a string of prisoner heads off with detonation cord looped around their necks.