Let us discuss Ukrainian elections

Nov 2015
1,678
Kyiv
Dir! According to your logic if Beria carried out directives, then Sudoplatov was also carrying out directives



In Nuremberg trial many Nazi commanders stated they were only carrying out orders of their commanders . Their excuses were not accepted by the tribuanl and they were found guilty of committing crime against humanity
I just said that zagranotryady were not the initiative of Beria, but, apparently, the initiative of Stalin himself - or someone from the highest army command. Beria is antipathetic to me, as is the whole Kremlin team. There were no good people there[. There was a full bunch of human vices. And Beria on the background emit perhaps of his good brains, decent education and good organizational skills

On education: Stalin graduated from a seminary in Georgia. His right hand Kaganovich had, as far as I know, 4 classes of Jewish heder. Even Lenin did not get a normal university education, and studied as an external student. That is, did not go to lectures, but passed the current exams as self-taught.

Sudoplatov was a hero for planning execution of Shukevych alone, who was responsible for killing many Poles in western Ukraine and burning numerous villages in Viciebsk ( my home region) and Mahilou regionsСотрудничал с нацистской Германией в 1939—1942 годах
Shukhevych:
Сотрудничал с нацистской Германией в 1939—1942 годах
- And who will answer for the 15 thousand peaceful Ukrainian peasants killed during the Volyn conflict? Who?! Commanders of the Polish AK? Polish policemen from German schutsmanshaft in Volyn? Or those common Poles who participated from the Polish side in that massacre? Or do you not know that in addition to the 50-60 thousand peaceful Poles who perished there — the account of the dead Ukrainian civilians there also went to many thousands?

The only difference is that the Poles tried to investigate the guilt of the Ukrainian side. And Ukraine did not. There are only many memories of older Ukrainians that the Poles were doing there. And a reminder of how it all began. But this is a separate story - you can bring it to the appropriate thread and state there what you consider essential for those events. And I will answer you point by point

Once again to remind you how actively your Country of Soviets cooperated with the Reich in 1939-1940? And even conducted with the Germans a joint military campaign against Poland. The first military campaign in WWII. And at that time Russia was the ONLY combat ally of the Reich. And the scale of this cooperation was not even dreamed of to any Shukhevych and Bandera. And this German-Russian cooperation did a great service to the Reich at the beginning of WWII.

Who burned Belarusian villages? As far as I know, there was practically no UPA in Belarus. UPA had enough worries in Ukraine. In addition, the UPA partisans were not very fond of moving away from their villages, where local residents knew them well and gave them great support.

Your villages burned:

- the German Einsatzgruppen

- international teams formed from Ukrainians, Russians, Belarusians, Poles, etc

At the same time, as an example, the police battalion that burned the famous Khatyn consisted mainly of former soldiers and officers of the Red Army. Not a single "Ukrainian nationalist" was close to them. I read a lot of materials on Khatyn, including the protocols of the Soviet investigation. Beyond etnic Ukrainians who resently were in Red Army among the ones who burned Khatyn together with its inhabitants was a number of ethnic Russians. And someone from Belarus.

The doubler of the German commander of the 118th Schutsmanshaft battalion Kerner was Konstantin Smovsky. The Pole. Do not forget to blame the Poles because of this.

So you better blame the Red Army that brought up these thugs, and not the UPA. Not only that - it seems to me that you do not know the history of the partisans in Belarus very well. Recently a number of studies about these partisans have been published, in Belarus, too. Some of them you would not like

My conclusions of all that studies:

- until 1943, among the so-called “Belarusian partisans” there were practically no Belarusian peasants. These units consisted of:

- local Commuist party activists left to work in the German rear in 1941

- Russian sabotage groups deployed in the German rear (by the way, this one also was Medvedev’s detachment in Ukraine).

- former Red Army soldiers and officers escaped from German captivity and joined soviet partisans.

A number of such units in Belarus had no benefit for Moscow authorities. They sat quietly in the woods, did not touch the Germans and hunted down the local peasants by petty robbery, taking away their food and clothing.

There are many other testimonials. A number of Soviet partisan detachments ruthlessly punished the Belarusian peasants for refusing to provide them with the necessary assistance - they killed the locals and burned their huts. I think you can easily find all these materials and testimonials on the Internet.

The local Belarusian population initially felt little sympathy for the soviet partisans. And in 1941 - early 1942, according to German reports, Belarusian peasants often handed over these partisans to the Germans. And I did not find in the German documents of that time any information about the support of the Soviet partisans by the Belarusian population in the period

Then in Moscow they came to the conclusion that it is necessary to stimulate the replenishment of their troops by local residents. And for this, those partisans who were in Belarus began to carry out provocative actions in order to cause punitive actions of the Germans against Belarus. One of these actions was a terrorist attack against the Belarus gauleiter Wilhelm Kube . It must be said that among the Germans themselves he was considered a big liberal in relation to Belarus and he made a number of handouts for the Belorusians. As a result, Russian saboteurs from a servant in the house of Kube laid explosives right in his bed. He died, only his pregnant wife lying nearby survived. After that, the Germans concluded that Belarusians do not need any liberalism from the occupation regime.

And Khatyn? You should know that there was a Soviet partisan detachment in the village for several days. Then they shot to the Germans from the windows of peasant houses. And in an ambush on the road they killed the German champion of the Olympic Games 1936. It was a very famous person among the Germans. After that, the Soviet partisans quickly fled into the woods, letting the peasants for angry Germans and warriors of the 118 Shutsmanshaft battalion.

There were many such examples. And the main punitive actions of the Germans in Belarus - this is 1943 - 1944. Khatyn was in March 1943.
 
Nov 2015
1,678
Kyiv
I can add that in the fall of 1942 the Ukrainian Schutsmanshaft units that were in Belarus were disbanded due to the fact that the Ukrainians did not sign a new contract with the Germans. Their current contract with the Germans ended on December 1, 1942. I'm not saying that none of the Ukrainians participated in German punitive actions in Belarus. But the same Shukhevych when a partisan war began in Belarus somewhere in the middle of the summer of 1942 was one of the initiators of the departure of Ukrainians from the German service in Belarus. And the departure of Ukrainians from the German Schutsmanshaft in Ukraine, too.

For that fall, the leadership of the UPA issued a decree according to which all Ukrainians who served in the shutsmanshaft had to leave the service and join with arms the UPA. Otherwise, he will be considered an enemy for the Ukrainians. By the way, in Belarus the Germans also had enough Belarusians in Schutsmanshaft police and other units. Do you know that?

Most of the Ukrainian Shutsmans went to the UPA since the end of the 1942, like the same Shukhevych, whose battalion carried the guard service in Belarus before that. The rest simply quit Schutsmanshaft. This is a story that is well known in Ukraine.

They didn‘t just fight partisans. They burned villages with elderly , women and children.
In Belarus including my home (Viciebsk region)

....There is a known Khatyn memorial near Minsk. The village was Polish-Belarusian. All women, children and elderly were burned by Ukrainian collaborators. The last of them died in Canada several years ago. In Soviet times, even these days seldom is mentioned those were SS collaborators mostly from western Ukraine
Again. In Khatyn in the destruction of the inhabitants were engaged the German troop from the German SS-battalion Dirlewanger and the 118 multinational Shutsmanshaft battalion .

As I see it, you are very interested in the ethnic identity of these bastards. The Germans in Belarus appeared as a result of the fact that the Moscow authorities dragged the Country of Soviets into World War II from September 17, 1939. From this to my way of thinking you need toe start your pathetic statements.

The Germans launched mass punitive actions by the end of 1942. And started all that since mid-1942 - hardly earlier. You should know this. And this was one of the reasons for the refusal of many Ukrainians to serve further in the shutsmanshaft in Belarus. Excluding those who came to Schutzmanshaft from German captivity and previously served in the Red Army

The main accused in Khatyn were the former senior lieutenant of the Red Army Vasyura. 8 months he spent in German captivity, and then went to serve the Germans

The question of the Soviet prosecutor: "Judging by the questionnaires, the majority of your subordinates previously served in the Red Army, passed through German captivity, do they not need to be led by the hand?"

Vasyura: “Yes, they served. But it was a gang of thugs, for whom the main thing is to rob and drink. Take the squad leader Meleshka - a regular Soviet officer and a uniform sadist, literally licked from the smell of blood. the commander of the Lakusta branch and the clerk Filippov, the translator Lukovich tortured people during interrogations, raped women: they were all bastards of scoundrels. I hated them! "

Vasyura lived quietly in the Land of the Soviets before his arrest, and even received the benefits of a war veteran. His service in the Red Army was confirmed by real documents.

Dir! Is Shukevych your hero too?
I have been trying for a long time not to abuse loud epithets - including the word hero.

Shukhevych as good as Bandera for most Ukrainians are primarily prominent leaders of the national liberation movement in Ukraine. The leaders of this struggle. They fought for the freedom and independence of Ukraine. They dedicated their lives to it and died in that struggle. These are simple and obvious facts.

By the by - what do you mean when you mention SS collaborators?
 
Sep 2012
8,900
India
There were 39 candidates participating. Ballot paper was 80cm long. LOL

Top 5 results

Volodymyr Zelensky 30.23% (showman). New to politics
Petro Poroshenko 15.95% (Current president of Ukraine. Businessman, billionaire). In politics since 1998. He's classic oligarch from eastern Europe.
Yulia Tymoshenko 13.39% . She's a rich woman. Also an oligarch. In politics since mid 90s
Yuri Boyko 11.67%. He held important top positions in management. In politics since early 2000. He is pro-Russian politician.
Anatoliy Hrytsenko 6.97%. He's well educated holding PhD in aviation engineering. He authored more than 100 scientific papers published in peer reviewed journals. In politics since mid 2000.

----

As no candidate obtained more than 50% of the votes, Volodymyr Zelensky and Petro Poroshenko will go in 2nd round election on 21st of April. The winner will be known on 22nd of April. Birthday of Lenin by the way. :)
Zelensky obtained almost twice as many votes as Poroshenko. Poroshenko even lost to Zelensky in his home Vinnytsia region. Also, not all voters who voted for Yulia Tymoshenko and Anatoliy Hrytsenko will vote for Poroshenko in the 2nd round election. No voter that voted for Yuri Boyko will vote for Poroshenko, as Yuri Boyko is a pro-Russian candidate. Many in Ukraine predict Zelensky will win.

Plenty of power is vested in Ukrainian parliament. For example, president cannot sack or appoint a minister. Ukrainian president is commander-in-chief of military and navy. The president also controls security service of Ukraine, who are quite good. Many have old KGB school. This is n important position given the situation in the east of the country.

The largest number of seats in parliament is held by Petro Poroshenko Bloc - 135. Petro Poroshenko Block is in coalition with People's Front - 80 seats. Opposition holds 150 seats, many of which will support the coalition should Zelensky win. Zelensky party is not represented in the parliament by his party at all. So, Zelensky won't be to do much should he become a president until autumn when parliament election will be held.

Formal education and political experience do not guarantee the candidate will become a good leader. Winston Churchill didn't have university degree only one year of military college. Alexander Lukashenko holds degree in pedagogical institute from a regional city majoring in history. He was a director of a small state farm before becoming a president. He grew up in a village without father. He's in power for 25 years and a well known politician in former republics of USSR. Not bad for a leader of a small country with a population of 9.5mln.

Vladimir Putin is well educated and intelligent. He's from a working class family. He holds a degree from a prestigious law school of St-Petersburg University and PhD in Economics. He worked as agent intelligence service in east Germany. He was colonel , which a high rank in intelligence service. Only best agents were recruited to work abroad in those days. But he had little political experience to be a president of country such as Russia. Between 1990-1996 he worked in administration of St-Petersburg city. In food supply. Between 1996 and 1999 he held various positions in Moscow. It's only between August of 1999 and December of 1999 he was prime minister. For 3 months only. He was appointed as acting president because of poor Yeltsin's health. Many oligarchs thought they appointed a puppet. He kicked out some oligarchs. Roman Abramovich, Boris Berezovsky, Vladimir Gusinsky. During his first term court jailed Mikhail Khodorkovsky. He was no-one in politics in comparison to Yeltsin and certainly Gorbachev. Many Russians state Putin is their best leader since mid 80s. He's self made from a family in which parents were factory workers.

Anyway, lack of education or experience does not mean the candidate will be a bad leader. And educated , experience in politics will become a good leader. If Volodymyr Zelensky wins he may be a good president for Ukraine. Unlikely, he will do much until autumn for the reasons I described above.
There are quite a few similarities between Putin and Modi, our Prime Minister. Modi comes from a humble background, as a youngster sold tea in trains and at a Railway station. He is a graduate in law, worked up his way through the hierarchy of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), from a humble volunteer in the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh ( National Volunteer Cadre ) of the BJP, became the Chief Minister of the state of Gujarat, eventually led the BJP to a majority on its own though from within a coalition. After 5 years as the PM, he is fighting a bitterly fought second election to the Indian Parliament.
We have 900 million voters ( yes 900 million ) who are eligible to vote, voting for 523 seats in the Indian Parliament. We do not have a Presidential system of Government, our President is only the titular head of State. In the first round for some 91 seats we had a 69.4 % of voting.
 
Sep 2012
8,900
India
Ukrainians or ex-Ukrainians ( e.g. Arkteia ) might clarify if the grabbing of Crimea by the Russian Federation is an election issue in their elections, this being like a part of Kashmir valley rightfully belonging to India being grabbed by Pakistan.
 

arkteia

Ad Honorem
Nov 2012
4,712
Seattle
BYW, since Khrushchev’s name is mentioned many times, he was born on April 15 or 16, he was not sure himself, of 1894. So, it is his birthday.
 

arkteia

Ad Honorem
Nov 2012
4,712
Seattle
Ukrainians or ex-Ukrainians ( e.g. Arkteia ) might clarify if the grabbing of Crimea by the Russian Federation is an election issue in their elections, this being like a part of Kashmir valley rightfully belonging to India being grabbed by Pakistan.
I am not an ex-Ukrainian. I am a Russian expat. I did have relatives in Kiev (they later moved), and in Lviv, but they were not ethnic Ukrainians, either. However, I visited Kiev several times, and Lviv, twice.
Ethnically, there definitely is some Ukrainian admixture, but probably every Russian/Ukrainian can say it. However, we perceive ourselves through the culture and even more, the language.
 

arkteia

Ad Honorem
Nov 2012
4,712
Seattle
It often happens here, original poster probably should have rights to delete posts that have nothing to do with the topic.
@janusdviveidis, I think they are interesting, as long as people don’t fight. Again, I wanted to see more about Ukraine, and the history of the candidates, but not much is happening so far. Let me see if I, at least, could publish their biographies, for the people to know.
 

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