Let us discuss Ukrainian elections

Nov 2015
1,924
Kyiv
Lexell, I'm not sure that your analysis is for the language of everyday communication but about a complete dictionary of these languages with lots of foreign special terms common to the Russian and Ukrainian languages .

We can see the difference in the simplest phrase -

Russian and Ukrainian languages have many differences

Ukr:
Російська і українська мова мають багато відмінностей

Rus:
Русский и украинский язык имеют много различий

As you can see, the differences between the two languages are very large. And I can give here a lot of similar phrases, so that you can see the essential differences between the Russian and Ukrainian languages.

E.g.:
If we talk about the language of everyday communication, it differs significantly in these two countries.

Rus:
Если говорить о языке повседневного общения, то он существенно различается в этих двух странах

Ukr:
Якщо говорити про мову повсякденного спілкування, то вона істотно різниться в цих двох країнах

I think that in your analysis the authors took all the Russian and Ukrainian lexicon with a lot of special terms borrowing from technical, medical and other in both languages, which, in turn, was borrowed in both languages from a number of European languages. And my analysis the authors took everyday vocabulary, in which practically there are no special technical, scientific, medical and other terms. So is the difference.
 
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Dec 2017
801
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Lexell, I'm not sure that your analysis is for the language of everyday communication but about a complete dictionary of these languages with lots of foreign special terms common to the Russian and Ukrainian languages .

We can see the difference in the simplest phrase -

Russian and Ukrainian languages have many differences

Ukr:
Російська і українська мова мають багато відмінностей

Rus:
Русский и украинский язык имеют много различий

As you can see, the differences between the two languages are very large. And I can give here a lot of similar phrases, so that you can see the essential differences between the Russian and Ukrainian languages.

E.g.:
If we talk about the language of everyday communication, it differs significantly in these two countries.

Rus:
Если говорить о языке повседневного общения, то он существенно различается в этих двух странах

Ukr:
Якщо говорити про мову повсякденного спілкування, то вона істотно різниться в цих двох країнах

I think that in your analysis the authors took all the Russian and Ukrainian lexicon with a lot of special terms borrowing from technical, medical and other in both languages, which, in turn, was borrowed in both languages from a number of European languages. And my analysis the authors took everyday vocabulary, in which practically there are no special technical, scientific, medical and other terms. So is the difference.
Lexicostatistical analysis in the first study is based on the Swadesh list of words which is accepted in academia around the world. See below. There is another comprehensive study based on common words . I recommend it if you interested about the subject. Carefully chosen words and we show Ukrainian is similar to Lithuanian as to Macedonian. This would be a biased study and this is not how statistical analysis is done. If you are free to search for any academic study.


PS Where did you obtain your figure?

--

The Swadesh list is a classic compilation of basic concepts for the purposes of historical-comparative linguistics. Translations of the Swadesh list into a set of languages allow researchers to quantify the interrelatedness of those languages. The Swadesh list is named after linguist Morris Swadesh. It is used in lexicostatistics (the quantitative assessment of the genealogical relatedness of languages) and glottochronology (the dating of language divergence). Because there are several different lists, some authors also refer to "Swadesh lists".
Swadesh list - Wikipedia
 
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Nov 2015
1,924
Kyiv
Lexicostatistical analysis in the first study is based on the Swadesh list of words which is accepted in academia around the world. See below. There is another comprehensive study based on common words . I recommend it if you interested about the subject. Carefully chosen words and we show Ukrainian is similar to Lithuanian as to Macedonian. This would be a biased study and this is not how statistical analysis is done. If you are free to search for any academic study.


PS Where did you obtain your figure?

--

The Swadesh list is a classic compilation of basic concepts for the purposes of historical-comparative linguistics. Translations of the Swadesh list into a set of languages allow researchers to quantify the interrelatedness of those languages. The Swadesh list is named after linguist Morris Swadesh. It is used in lexicostatistics (the quantitative assessment of the genealogical relatedness of languages) and glottochronology (the dating of language divergence). Because there are several different lists, some authors also refer to "Swadesh lists".
Swadesh list - Wikipedia
Here is a Swadesh list for two languages.

GEO. Лингвистика. Список Сводеша: сравниваем украинский и русский языки. Слова и их перевод.

Its author (I'm not sure that it is Swadesh) identified by green colour complete and almost complete coincidence of words in two languages (the one who compared the words did not take into account that the Ukrainian и does not sound like a Russian и but as a Russian ы, and for a Russian sound and word и in Ukrainian is used a letter i ).

The list is clearly compiled by a person who does not speak Ukrainian well. So, the Ukrainian чоловик is not a Russian человек - in Ukrainians it is людина. A man. And the word муж (a husband in Russian ) in modern Ukrainian is not used at all - instead, the Ukrainians say чоловик. The Ukrainian сім'я (a family) is compared in the list with the Russian семя (seeds) etc., etc.

The selection of common words by green color in the list is also very controversial. How can be considered as similarly sounded the words квитка (Ukr) and цветок (Rus) - both mean a flower? When they sound as kvitka and tsvetok? Or вони (vony) and они (onyi)? And Ukrainian смоктати and Russian сосать (to suck)?

And the qty of the words selected for the list are much less than in the colloquial lexicon of both languages.

For comparison - here is a list of Svadesh for Slavic languages for 207 words . The first column is Russian, the sixth one is Ukrainian.

Перелік Сводеша для слов'янських мов — Вікіпедія
 
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Dec 2017
801
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How can be considered as similarly sounded the words квитка (Ukr) and цветок (Rus) - both mean a flower? When they sound as kvitka and tsvetok?
Why do you think authors considered that both sound similarly or etymologically similar? If these words are not etymologically similar then they are not counted as similar. The similarity is 86% and 14% are not similar .Hence tsevetok and kvitka are in those 14%


PS In Belarusian kvеtka is flower. But also kraski are flowers .
 
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Nov 2015
1,924
Kyiv
Why do you think authors considered that both sound similarly or etymologically similar? If these words are not etymologically similar then they are not counted as similar. The similarity is 86% and 14% are not similar .Hence tsevetok and kvitka are in those 14%


PS In Belarusian kvеtka is flower. But also kraski are flowers .
- I used the extended list of Swadesh (207 words) to calculate the number of identical or very similar words of Russian and Ukrainian. The link to the list is in my above message.

Перелік Сводеша для слов'янських мов — Вікіпедія

I took into account the same words or differing in 1 letter in the middle or at the end of the word. I do not think that you would be pleased with a result. From 207 basic words I counted only 122 identical or very similar words in the Ukrainian and Russian languages. That is, only 59%.

I do not think that your own calculation will provide a significantly better result. And I know the answer to this question from my own practice. Those Russians who visited us from Russia, understand little from the Ukrainian speech. At best, they are guessing about the meaning of what a conversation is going on, but they do not understand a lot of Ukrainian words.
 
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Dec 2017
801
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- I used the extended list of Swadesh (207 words) to calculate the number of identical or very similar words of Russian and Ukrainian. The link to the list is in my above message.

Перелік Сводеша для слов'янських мов — Вікіпедія

I took into account the same words or differing in 1 letter in the middle or at the end of the word. I do not think that you would be pleased with a result. From 207 basic words I counted only 122 identical or very similar words in the Ukrainian and Russian languages. That is, only 59%.

I do not think that your own calculation will provide a significantly better result. And I know the answer to this question from my own practice. Those Russians who visited us from Russia, understand little from the Ukrainian speech. At best, they are guessing about the meaning of what a conversation is going on, but they do not understand a lot of Ukrainian words.
I also provided a monograph published by Zhuravlyov in which more than 1,000 words are used for each available Slavic language. The words are taken from etymological dictionary of Slavic languages in 40 volumes : Etymological Dictionary of Slavic Languages - Wikipedia
I can guarantee any decent scientific study will show similarities between Ukrainian and Russian. Slavic languages are grouped into east, west and south for a reason. Not only the languages in each group have similar vocabulary they also have similar grammar.
In all due respect you are not in a position to judge which words are etymologically similar. You either want to know the truth which should be above all for a scholar or you want to believe in what you want to believe.
 
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Nov 2015
1,924
Kyiv
I also provided a monograph published by Zhuravlyov in which more than 1,000 words are used for each available Slavic language. The words are taken from etymological dictionary of Slavic languages in 40 volumes : Etymological Dictionary of Slavic Languages - Wikipedia
I can guarantee any decent scientific study will show similarities between Ukrainian and Russian. Slavic languages are grouped into east, west and south for a reason. Not only the languages in each group have similar vocabulary they also have similar grammar.
In all due respect you are not in a position to judge which words are etymologically similar. You either want to know the truth which should be above all for a scholar or you want to believe in what you want to believe.


In such things as this, I most of all trust my own impressions. Of the dozen Russians who came to visit us in Kiev from Russia, not one of them understood Ukrainian language either on TV or when they heard it in everyday conversations of Ukrainians. More precisely, they understood Ukrainian no more than the Englishman understands the speech of the Dutch or the Pole — the speech of the Russians. Russians themselves often assure each other that the Ukrainian language is a spoiled Russian (I will not comment on it) - but when faced with Ukrainian - it turns out that it was so spoiled that became a separate language.
 

arkteia

Ad Honorem
Nov 2012
4,723
Seattle
All my wife's relatives live in Russia. And when they or someone else came to visit us in Kiev from Russia, they confessed that in the first days they understood almost nothing of what Ukrainian television was talking about. Only a few days later there was at least some understanding.

In Russian, only 62% of the words are common with the Ukrainian language. According to this indicator, the Russian language with respect to Ukrainian is only in fifth place after Polish, Czech, Slovak and Belarusian. For comparison, it can be noted that the English and Dutch languages are 63% similar in lexical composition - that is, more than Russian and Ukrainian.
Dir, it depends on who is speaking Ukrainian. When it is Timoshenko, I understand everything. We recently watched some movie with Zelensky and Koshevoy in Ukrainian (about divorce) and understood everything. When it is someone from West Ukraine, I understand 20%.
 

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