And you insist on comparing the logistics of one type of warfare with those of a much different type of warfare, with much different geography, so you don't have a real justification for complaint.No it doesn't. You are comparing an empire at perhaps it's absolute bottom to the absolute peak.
Even before I stumbled upon the Dungan Revolt, I said that the Qing methods that Gansu would work if you had supplies available in the province to obtain, but there would be issues if their weren't. Again, if we can use examples from 17th century Europe, 19th century China is the very same region is surely just as justified.
And if you say a hundred years made such a fundamental difference, then the same thing applies to Europe as well, and all the comparisons with 17th century Europe are invalid. You yourself have invalidated Perdue's comparisons.
Your are being personal, have repeatedly been personal, and just aren't being honest. You don't like the facts that the Dungan Revolt kind of undermines all the claims that were being made for Qing superiority, too bad.And also ignoring actual changes in governmental policies. Don't take this personally Bart, but you know nothing about internal Qing policies, that is why you would compare the Qing during Kangxi-Qianlong era where the Xiexiang system was still functioning, and then the mid Xianfeng era where the Xiexiang system collapsed in the 1850s.
And no offense, but you demonstrated no knowledge of the nature of fighting in Europe in the 17th century, and worse, Khagan flat out insist it doesn't matter, demonstrating either ignorance or dishonestly.
The examples of Perdue's given so far have been as invalid and more unjustified than my examples of the Dungan Revolts, being just as remote in time, and involving a different terrain and geography, and different fighting requirements.
Zuo Zongtang managed to overcome the same issues and put and end to the revolt, eliminating the looting and extortion of the Chinese armies in Gansu once he was put in charge. Did the Qing miraculously stop collapsing once he was put in charge? No, it didn't.Qing's collapse isn't just a military failure, but also an economic failure. To put the Dungan Rebellion as sort of a military issue ignores entirely the complex issues involved, and to think that the Dungan Rebellion exposed some sort of logistic issue Chinese always had is to put it frankly, stubbornly ignorant. To put it in ways you might comprehend, that is like saying the Social War is about war of independence while ignoring the underlying issues involved in the Social War.
The problems with Qing logistics could be seen even in the examples that Perdue gave. The grain prices in Gansu increased 3 fold, which meant that Qing armies relied heavily on localized resources to support. That is all and well when there were local supplies to be had, but disastrous when they weren't, as was the case of the Gansu rebellion. And since there was little actual fighting n Gansu, the infrastructure wasn't damage, and the area would not suffer long term. But when there was fighting in the area, infrastructure would be damaged and the area would suffer.
The Qing at their peak in the 18th century weren't fighting anyone of comparable power, their enemies were all far less powerful. Russia throughout the period was fully occupied with fighting in Europe, and its far east possessions were more remote from its power base, and were in no position to seriously challenge the Qing, they simply couldn't devote military resources from the European theater.
Here is a google book link to Chinese and Indian Warfare – From the Classical Age to 1870 edited by Kaushik Roy, Peter Lorge. It is an interesting book from what I read so far.
https://books.google.com/books?id=627fBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA277&lpg=PA277&dq=chinese+and+indian+warfare+from+the+classical+age+to+1870+Gansu+logistics&source=bl&ots=bExD-CzPW_&sig=Eane2vWflHJvHXIZFXIR6iDnjoY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi044LF8oPdAhVh0oMKHSWZCLAQ6AEwAnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=chinese and indian warfare from the classical age to 1870 Gansu logistics&f=false
Here is a little background on the Dungan Revolt. Upon closer reading
I noticed the 20 million population reduction I cited earlier wasn't all due to deaths, here are some figures just due to deaths.The Dungan Revolt (1862–77) or Tongzhi Hui Revolt (simplified Chinese: 同治回变/乱; traditional Chinese: 同治回變/亂; pinyin: Tóngzhì Huí Biàn/Luàn, Xiao'erjing: توْجِ حُوِ بِيًا/لُوًا, Dungan: Тунҗы Хуэй Бян/Луан) or Hui (Muslim) Minorities War was a mainly ethnic and religious war fought in 19th-century western China, mostly during the reign of the Tongzhi Emperor (r. 1861–75) of the Qing dynasty. The term sometimes includes the Panthay Rebellion in Yunnan, which occurred during the same period. However, this article relates specifically to the uprising by members of the Muslim Hui and other Muslim ethnic groups in China's Shaanxi, Gansu and Ningxia provinces, as well as in Xinjiang, between 1862 and 1877. The revolt arose over a pricing dispute involving bamboo poles, when a Han merchant selling to a Hui did not receive the amount demanded for the goods. A recorded 20.77 million population reduction in Shaanxi and Gansu occurred due to migration and war related death. A further 74.5% population reduction occurred in Gansu, and 44.7% in Shaanxi. In Shaanxi, 83.7% (~5.2 million) of the total loss occurred in the period of war as a consequence of mass migration and war-related death. Many civilian deaths were also caused by famine due to war conditions.
Regardless, the percentage of losses and the actual numbers exceed any war I know of in 18th century Europe. Losses during Napoleonic wars in the early 18th century may have been as high, but as a percentage they were far less, and the number of troops in the Napoleonic war was far greater. Many, most of those civilian losses would have been due to logistical problems of the Qing army. You can read about the civilian suffering of the population in the book Chinese and Indian Warfare - From Classical Age to 1870 I cited above.The uprising of the Hui people occurred along the banks of the Yellow River in Gansu, Ningzia, and Shaanxi. The ultimate goal was to create a new Muslim country in these areas. It was a relatively unorganized assault, but it still had bloody results. Roughly 2 million Hui people were killed and about 6 million Han people died, which meant that more than 50% of the region’s population vanished. https://gohighbrow.com/dungan-revolt/