Martial incompetence of Islam (vs. cultural power of Islam?)

Nov 2013
725
Texas
Has anyone ever noted that after the Omeya (and especially after the Abbasids were driven out of Persia, and prior to Baibers), Islam was far more affluent than it was martially competent?

Take Almohad dynasty Morrocco for example; Sales and Fez did well; but it's military and administrative record was nevertheless silly. Persia was a cultural powerhouse; yet really wasn't as powerful as pre-islamic Persia.

Seljuk turk quickly lost their martial competence after Alp Arslan (and then went on to become notable architects), Al-Andalus was the cultural capital of western Europe for nearly 4 centuries (say 820-1220), yet it's martial record was overall nothing to brag about.

It's certainly not unheard of for a society to be more competent culturally than militarily, but does one notice a trend of ISlam after the Omeya (and especially after the Abbasids lost control of central Asia), functioning more as a cultural power than a martial one? (particularly in the case of Persia and Al-Andalus?)
 
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Nov 2013
725
Texas
The Ottomans?
I meant more in the period after the Omeya dynasty but before the rise of the Ottoman empire. There were plenty of fine Islamic warriors to be sure (such as Almansor or Baibers), but Islam (particulaly Persia, Al-andalus, and/or Morrocco) during this period seems to be an almost extreme example of a society more powerful culturally than it was militarily.

I am beginning to wonder if ISlamic Iberia is overrated by certain observers (such as Stanley Lane Poole), and if it was more Morrocco that sharpened the martial and cultural wits of Iberia.
 
Nov 2013
725
Texas
I don't know how you can calculate that, to be honest.
Well, take Islamic Persia for example; even before she fell to the Seljuk Turks, we see signs of cultural greatness and martial incompetence in the Samanid and Buyid dynasties, Persia being much more culturally distinguished; yet having issues with unification and defense from turks than it did in the pre-Islamic period.
 

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,660
Republika Srpska
Well, take Islamic Persia for example; even before she fell to the Seljuk Turks, we see signs of cultural greatness and martial incompetence in the Samanid and Buyid dynasties, Persia being much more culturally distinguished; yet having issues with unification and defense from turks than it did in the pre-Islamic period.
I don't know why is that connected with Islam. I don't know much about the Samanids or the Buyids so I cannot say whether what you said is true, but Islamic Persia definitely produced powerful empires, the Timurids if you want to count them and the Safavids for example.
 
Jan 2013
1,067
Toronto, Canada
Considering the military accomplishments during Islam's first 200 years, some fall off was inevitable. It seems like the Muslim world had an ordinary record of victories and defeats punctuated by one dramatic sequence of military disasters and sandwiched between two periods of dramatic military success.
 
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Mar 2018
861
UK
I meant more in the period after the Omeya dynasty but before the rise of the Ottoman empire. There were plenty of fine Islamic warriors to be sure (such as Almansor or Baibers), but Islam (particulaly Persia, Al-andalus, and/or Morrocco) during this period seems to be an almost extreme example of a society more powerful culturally than it was militarily.

I am beginning to wonder if ISlamic Iberia is overrated by certain observers (such as Stanley Lane Poole), and if it was more Morrocco that sharpened the martial and cultural wits of Iberia.
If you cherry pick areas and regions where Islamic nations were more powerful culturally than militarily, then, yes, Islamic nations are stronger culturally than militarily. That, however, is not a particularly strong statement to be honest.
 
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Theodoric

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
2,959
Yötebory Sveriya
I think you need to be more specific than an entire religion. There’s not really an obvious relationship or correlation here.
 
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Nov 2013
725
Texas
I think you need to be more specific than an entire religion. There’s not really an obvious relationship or correlation here.
Perhaps time period; roughly 760-1460 (excluding Turko-mongols such as the Timurids, Ottomans, etc.)

can go either way with Arab martial prowess during the period.

I'd say there was a correlation (Islamic powers actually having a lot more emphasis on Clergy, trade, scholarship, Urban development, or even agriculture than warfare)