Mongol invasions of Japan numbers

Haakbus

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,798
United States
I'm trying to find the details of the forces in during the Mongol invasions of Japan. The numbers in the Yuanshi are generally accepted to be exaggerated.

According to some scholars I've seen, the first invasion was around 10,000 men on 700-800 ships in all instead of 16,600-26,000 men on 900 ships. The second invasion was around 70,000 men (number of ships?) instead of 125,000 on 4,400 ships.

According to the Koryo-sa for the first invasion(?) native-style ships were built instead of Song style because if they did the latter then they would not be able to meet the Mongols' deadline. However, the Moko Shurai Ekotoba scroll apparently of the first invasion shows what I believe are both Korean and Chinese ships.


Where do these estimates come from? In particular I'm looking for more information on the numbers of ships.
 
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Haakbus

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,798
United States
According to the Koryo-sa, three types of ships were built, three hundred of each: 1000-liao ships, "baator" fighting ships, and "water carriers". These are understood to have been transports, warships or landing craft, and miscelaneous boats for various tasks.

It also says that Korean-style ships were built instead of Chinese-style because the latter would take too long so they couldn't reach the deadline. However, the Moko Shurai Ekotoba scroll (depicting the first invasion) shows clearly both Chinese and Korean style ships. Maybe the passage was after they acquired a certain number of Chinese-style ships they decided they could only build native ones?
 
Jan 2018
18
Italy
I've made a super quick research but I can't help with the number of ships.

However the shipwreck discovered few years ago by James Delgado was a Chinese war ship over 230 feet long, and the material used came from Fujian province. Most of the artifacts discovered were of Chinese origin rather than Mongolian, so Chinese war ships were used as well; not sure however if they were the majority or not.
 

Haakbus

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,798
United States
I've made a super quick research but I can't help with the number of ships.

However the shipwreck discovered few years ago by James Delgado was a Chinese war ship over 230 feet long, and the material used came from Fujian province. Most of the artifacts discovered were of Chinese origin rather than Mongolian, so Chinese war ships were used as well; not sure however if they were the majority or not.
Did the site it was found in date to the first invasion?
 

Haakbus

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,798
United States
Yeah the thing is we know that Chinese ships were used in the second invasion according to the written records. It's the first invasion that I'm trying to figure out.
 
May 2009
1,335
The book Ghenko: The Mongol Invasion of Japan gives an even larger number than the one you quoted for the first invasion--900 ships with 40,000 soldiers (combined Mongol, Chinese and Korean troops). 25,000 Chinese and Mongol troops came from China and rendezvoused with 15,000 Korean troops in that country. The book is probably using the the Yuanshi as a source for the numbers.
 

Haakbus

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,798
United States
I was mistaken, the scroll that shows both Chinese and Korean ships is from the second invasion. The first invasion scroll doesn't show ships at all.