More impactful battles

?

  • Battle of Teutoburg Forest (9AD)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Battle of Stamford Bridge (1066)

    Votes: 2 8.7%
  • Battle of Grunwald (1410)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Battle of Lutzen (1632)

    Votes: 2 8.7%
  • Battle of Vienna (1683)

    Votes: 12 52.2%
  • Battle of Tsushima (1905)

    Votes: 2 8.7%
  • Battle of the Marne (1914)

    Votes: 5 21.7%

  • Total voters
    23
Nov 2010
7,647
Cornwall
#11
Louis XIV obviously imagined a future where his grandson also inherited the throne of France (which would have happened only a couple of years after the war ended, since Louis's son and heir died an unexpectedly early death), and he spoke of the two kingdoms being united into a single superpower. But while a Bourbon did still get put on the throne of Spain, he renounced all claims to the throne of France, which ensured there would be no Franco-Spanish superstate.
Ah, yes, sort of stuff my late dad would have known (Historian, Cambridge MA, teacher etc). He liked the politics stuff. I'm more for war.

Mind you if Louis XIV could've seen the future, he wouldn't have wanted much to do with declining Spain decades later!! (Sorry Martin)
 
Jun 2013
493
Connecticut
#12
Why would the Marne be included? Yes it saved France but overall it, i.e. WW I, was an indecisive blood bath as you look back in history. It just led to more destruction a couple of decades later.
 
Sep 2016
1,141
Georgia
#14
It's actually quite a complex idea. For example Blenheim obviously has resounded through history, but if you look at the aims of the War, it ended with a Bourbon on the Spanish throne.

Therefore you could argue it had no impact at all.
No impact at all ? War of Spanish Succession ended in kind of a defeat for France.
 
Feb 2019
674
Serbia
#15
No impact at all ? War of Spanish Succession ended in kind of a defeat for France.
It had an impact of stopping the French advance on Vienna and keeping Austria in the war, if Austria fell who knows what would've happened. (Maybe a French dominated HRE?) However the war wasn't a defeat for France, they managed to install their candidate on the throne of Spain but didn't get a Franco-Spanish union and Spain was weakened after the war, on the other hand the allies didn't install a Habsburg in Spain. So I would say it was kind of a stalemate.
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
34,435
T'Republic of Yorkshire
#16
Tsushima is interesting. It is the battle that convinced the Japanese that they were strong enough to stand up to the colonial powers, and drove their military doctrine for the next 40 years. It precipitated the Asian theatre of WW2, which ultimately drew the US into the war and dictated Japanese military strategy.
 
Aug 2016
977
US&A
#17
Tsushima is interesting. It is the battle that convinced the Japanese that they were strong enough to stand up to the colonial powers, and drove their military doctrine for the next 40 years. It precipitated the Asian theatre of WW2, which ultimately drew the US into the war and dictated Japanese military strategy.
Indeed, the world would have been very different if not for the battle of Tsushima. The island itself continues to shape policy.
 
Sep 2016
1,141
Georgia
#18
It had an impact of stopping the French advance on Vienna and keeping Austria in the war, if Austria fell who knows what would've happened. (Maybe a French dominated HRE?) However the war wasn't a defeat for France, they managed to install their candidate on the throne of Spain but didn't get a Franco-Spanish union and Spain was weakened after the war, on the other hand the allies didn't install a Habsburg in Spain. So I would say it was kind of a stalemate.
No, it was more of a defeat.

Austria gained Spanish Netherlands, Milan, Sardinia and Naples.
Britain gained colonies in America from France and Spain
Savoy gained Sicily
Dutch Republic was finally safe from French threat
It was affirmed by treaties, that the thrones of France and Spain could not be united.

France was weakened and completely exhausted. Grand Alliance managed to contain France, while also making big and important territorial acquisitions.

Also, Austria wouldn't be destroyed by France. HRE wouldn't be dominated by France even if Blenheim never happened. France would just force Vienna to make peace and that's it.

Don't confuse European warfare and politics of 1704 with 1805.
 
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Feb 2019
674
Serbia
#19
No, it was more of a defeat.

Austria gained Spanish Netherlands, Milan and Naples.
Britain gained colonies in America from France and Spain
Savoy gained Sicily

That is what I meant by ''Spain was weakened.'' France achieved their goal of putting a Bourbon on the Spanish throne, Austria didn't achieve theirs of putting a Habsburg on the throne (And maybe even form a personal union, the Austrian candidate became the Holy Roman Emperor in 1711.) Britain preserved the balance of power more-or-less but didn't prevent a Franco-Spanish alliance, thus achieving part of their goals. The war was more of a stalemate if we look at pre war goals. It begs the question of did France want a Franco-Spanish union? Louis XIV did envision such a thing but it wasn't clear that the French candidate could've become king of France until 1712 and by 1711 the war was slowing down, nobody envisioned 3 generations of French heirs to the throne suddenly dying in 1711 and 1712.
 
Sep 2016
1,141
Georgia
#20
That is what I meant by ''Spain was weakened.'' France achieved their goal of putting a Bourbon on the Spanish throne, Austria didn't achieve theirs of putting a Habsburg on the throne (And maybe even form a personal union, the Austrian candidate became the Holy Roman Emperor in 1711.) Britain preserved the balance of power more-or-less but didn't prevent a Franco-Spanish alliance, thus achieving part of their goals. The war was more of a stalemate if we look at pre war goals. It begs the question of did France want a Franco-Spanish union? Louis XIV did envision such a thing but it wasn't clear that the French candidate could've become king of France until 1712 and by 1711 the war was slowing down, nobody envisioned 3 generations of French heirs to the throne suddenly dying in 1711 and 1712.
Result of the war is not always should be determined by pre war goals. There are a lot of examples in history of that.

France started the war with the goal to retain all Spanish possessions. Not just put Bourbon on Spanish throne.

France was also weakened as result of the war, not just Spain. Enemies of France managed to make serious gains at the expense of France and Spain.

Situation was actually very bad for France in 1709. It was on the brink of complete defeat. Louis was ready to accept all demands of his enemies. However, one of the demands was for Louis to use his own army against Philip in Spain. That was humiliation Louis could not accept and continued to fight.

Grand Alliance put an end to French ambitions and dominance with Nine Years War and War of Spanish Succession. Spanish Netherlands was the prize that Louis wanted for decades and it was Austria who received those territories in the end.

Dutch Republic preserved the balance of power and was finally safe from French threat. Dutch Republic was the biggest enemy of France and most stubborn one in those 30 years.
 
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