Most outstanding leaders of the 15th century

Mar 2016
887
Australia
#31
Machiavelli criticized Cesare in the ,, Prince '' for his conduct though and how it lead to his demise
Interesting. It's been a few years since I've read it so I'm not too well versed in it. What specific criticisms did he have of him? I thought that he generally admired his martial prowess, energy and determination to build a unified Italian state. The only criticism I can recall was that he was perhaps too cruel in dealing with certain people, although he also says that cruelty is sometimes necessary on rare occasions to ensure control and stability, but not done in excess.
 
Dec 2014
6,248
Spain
#32
Techically several countries, not 'a country' my old friend eh?. Mind you another civil war was just around the corner - La de las Comunidades. Toti Martinex de Lezea did a great historical novel on Maria Pacheco, La Comunera. I like most of her books. Though I'm struggling a bit with Jardin de la Oca

Well.... I will agree with you dear John... and I will accept...but only if you also say England was not a country but technically several countries... I am reading a book just now about Medieval comparative history... Spain-britain-France... if you say Spain was several countries... you have to say France was several countries (till the year 1791 as minimum) and England was several countries at least till 16th Century (I am talking about England.. not about United Kingdom... a State born in 18th Century).

One example, as you well know... Richard Coeur de Lion was not Richard Lionheart.. because he never spoke a word in english language and an Englishman was as strange for this French Norman guy as a bushman for us...Né à Oxford, Richard Cœur de Lion est sans doute le moins anglais des rois d'Angleterre (Born in Oxford. Richard Coeur de Lion is.. without any doubt.. the least Englishman of all the kings of England.).. I would say.. less English still than the very Germans George I, George II and.... George III?


For Richard.. English language was as strange as for us.. Urdu or Hausa languages!!!...


However English elites.. my dear John (and you are specialist in Medieval History)...have used (and still using) the Richard Coeur de Lion´s portrait as a Great Patriot man... in 15 movies!!!!! A man never spoke English, never wrote in English.. this supposed "homosexual" king... was not an "example" of living...he betrayed and rebelled against his father , Henry II.. not once but twice!... and not because any "patriotism"...but because his father didn´t want to give his kingdom to this ambitious character ..

Then Richard betrayed his brother, John (the famous John lackland)...not happy with it, this French Norman, extremely violent man, departed to the crusades ...
there he completely failed in his goal of taking Jerusalem ... (Saladin was infinitely smarter than him). ...to vent his frustration (Failure was his surname) .. murdered 2.600 arab civilians (many of them children and women)... By the way.. he killed in one day more than the “famous” (by protestant propaganda) Spanish Inquisition organized by the Catholic Monarchs...for 3 centuries!

Richard “Calamity” back to Europe after his failed in Palestine...(he was not an Allenby)...he was made Prisioner by the Duke of Austria Luitpold V and by the Empeor Heinrich VI...boht they have been betrayed by this “saint”...

English people had to pay the money of the rescue... Coeur de Lion died in 1199 ... doing what he liked best ... murdering, looting, stealing ...

By the way.. Robin hood is an invention.. not matched with this kind of Medieval Age homo and quarrelsome Jack the ripper...appeared around 1450...around 250 years later... and only it was related to Richard Coeur de Lion by y John Major in his Historia Majoris Britanniæ (1521).... in a kind of Political Propaganda... to create an English national conscience ...

So.. yes the King of Spain.. Spaniae Regnum, Hispaniae, Spaniae Rex etc etc is as old or older than the title of King of England or King of France...
 
Dec 2014
6,248
Spain
#33
Lorenzo de Medici ? Machiavelli was also a big fan of Francesco Sforza.
But as the own Machiavelli wrote:

Nessuna cosa fa tanto stimare uno principe quanto fanno le grandi imprese e dare di sé rari esempli. Noi abbiamo ne' nostri tempi Ferrando di Aragona, presente re di Spagna. Costui si può chiamare quasi principe nuovo, perché, di uno re debole, è diventato per fama e per gloria el primo re de' Cristiani; e se considerrete le azioni sua, le troverrete tutte grandissime e qualcuna straordinari

(There is nothing that makes a prince as esteemed as theh great ventures do and give rare examples of themselves. We have in our times Ferdinand of Aragon, at the present, King of Spain. We can say he is a modern (new) prince, because, from a weak king, he became by fame and glory the first king of the Christians; and if you consider his actions, you will find them all very large and some extraordinary) Macchiavelli.

As I wrote yesterday.. Elisabeth and Ferdinand inherited a country devastated by civil war. and they turned it into the greatest power ... in the first universal empire in history.... not Medicis not Sforza, Este etc well, I would say no other human in history made nothing as what was done by Elisabeth and Ferdinand.. as it was written by Macchiavelli in the Prince....from nothing to top!
 
Oct 2010
8,664
#35
One example, as you well know... Richard Coeur de Lion was not Richard Lionheart.. because he never spoke a word in english language and an Englishman was as strange for this French Norman guy as a bushman for us...Né à Oxford, Richard Cœur de Lion est sans doute le moins anglais des rois d'Angleterre (Born in Oxford. Richard Coeur de Lion is.. without any doubt.. the least Englishman of all the kings of England.).. I would say.. less English still than the very Germans George I, George II and.... George III?
In Richard I's time there was nothing more English than a French speaking Norman Upper class. Perfectly representative of his class, in England at this time. As such more more English than the George I who was shaped by foreign polity/culture. Norman culture/society /polity was part of England at the time.

English is an historical anachronism at this piont English would only became English after the Norman influence was intergrated.

Your using English throughout this post is simply inaccurate.

For Richard.. English language was as strange as for us.. Urdu or Hausa languages!!!...
English did not exist at the time. And it was not as distanct as Urdu. It was related lanaguge.


Coeur de Lion died in 1199 ... doing what he liked best ... murdering, looting, stealing ...
How is ts different from the whole range of medieval monarchs? It's just prejudicial langauage becuase you don;t like the guy rather than any generuie reflection.

s kind of Medieval Age homo a
How about being reflective people regardless of sexual orientation. Refrain from objectiable name calling.
 
Dec 2014
6,248
Spain
#36
Philip II was the first monarch to style himself as ,, King of France '' in the last half of 12th century.
I can see you agree with me that Macchiavelli wrote Prince thinking in the King Fernando and that the title king of France (Francorum Rex)... from last half of 12th Century is very old but not older that the title King of Spain (REX HISPANIAE) used by the Kings from Council of Toledo in 6th Century. (page 10)

Here the evolution in crhonicles between Regnum Gothourm and Regnum Hispanie or Spaniae or REX HISPANIAE.. According with this last source.. the concept of SPANIAE REGNUM or HISPANIAE regnum changed with centuries. (according to early chronicles). The first preserved chronicles, the Mozarabic one, interpret that the kingdom of the Goths (Regnum Gothorum) has come to an end with the arab conquest, who in turn have succeeded them in the government of the kingdom of Spain (Regnum Hispaniae). shortly after and in the most peripheral corner of the ancient Regnum Gothorum, the Septimian chronicles assume that the kingdom of the Goths (Regnum Gothourm) disappeared although he has been relieved by two collectives fighting by the dominion of the Kingdom of Spain (Regnum Hispaniae): the Charlemagne´s Christians and muslims from Cordoba.. both wanted the total control of the Kingdom of Spain in a mutual vision of divine predestination (Christ vs Mohammed). Finally, in the second half of 9th Century, the Asturian chronicles will change the concept...The Regnum Hispaniae.. the Kingdom of Spain is only (and alone) the Christian side of Spain.... never the muslims...The Asturian Kings are going to say they are heirs from the Regnum Gothorum and the Regnum Hispaniae.. they will say the Kingdom of Spain has been transferred from the Goths to the Asturians... through the Royal line. In the Asturian crhonicles we have an ideological argument to recover the whole of the Kingdom of Spain (the Regnum Hispaniae)... interpreting that the Goths and later the Asturian are the only Spaniards...legitime depositaries of the Regnum Gothorum...and with the right to link again Spain...a Spain where are not included Muslims... at all...Cordova is not Spain and not part of the "Regnum Hispaniae".. according with this thought we can see in Asturian chronicles.. till Christian (Goth´s heirs) taken in 1236.. as in Seville is not Spain till 1248. Asturian and later Leoneses, Aragonese, Navarra, or Castilian are not going to use the word Reconquista (used only from Lafuente in 19th Century) but they used the word RESTAURATIO (To restablish the old kingdom.. the old Regnum Hispaniae.. Regnum Gothorum).

I was only answering to John... simply Elisabeh and Ferdinand were Spaniards and they had conscience to be Spaniards...and as Spaniards were seen by Macchiavelli, the French, the Germans etc.
 
Last edited:
Likes: Gvelion
Dec 2014
6,248
Spain
#37
In Richard I's time there was nothing more English than a French speaking Norman Upper class. Perfectly representative of his class, in England at this time. As such more more English than the George I who was shaped by foreign polity/culture. Norman culture/society /polity was part of England at the time.

English is an historical anachronism at this piont English would only became English after the Norman influence was intergrated.

Your using English throughout this post is simply inaccurate.


English did not exist at the time. And it was not as distanct as Urdu. It was related lanaguge.



How is ts different from the whole range of medieval monarchs? It's just prejudicial langauage becuase you don;t like the guy rather than any generuie reflection.


How about being reflective people regardless of sexual orientation. Refrain from objectiable name calling.
Dear Puigsville...

Richard Coeur de Lion... was an English patriot if you like to think so...yes he loved England and everything in this life he just did thinking in England and sang Britannia rule the waves...

But I am afraid.. the Movies are not very good source to base that opinion....he never spoke English and not even he lived in England.... but if you think he was a great English Patriot.. OK I respect your opinion and dreams..

My opinion.. Coeur de Lion was not Englihs..he was a Norman.. a Plantagenet... culturally French...but without any love for nothing save himself.. he cared a dam England, France or most terrible...not even Plantagenet!!!

In his whole reign .. Richard didn´t spent in England more than 6 months!
 
Likes: Futurist
Oct 2010
8,664
#38
Dear Puigsville...

Richard Coeur de Lion... was an English patriot if you like to think so...yes he loved England and everything in this life he just did thinking in England and sang Britannia rule the waves...

But I am afraid.. the Movies are not very good source to base that opinion....he never spoke English and not even he lived in England.... but if you think he was a great English Patriot.. OK I respect your opinion and dreams..

My opinion.. Coeur de Lion was not Englihs..he was a Norman.. a Plantagenet... culturally French...but without any love for nothing save himself.. he cared a dam England, France or most terrible...not even Plantagenet!!!

In his whole reign .. Richard didn´t spent in England more than 6 months!
All of which totally misrepresnts and fails to understand the points I made,

If you can;t be bothered to read and try to understand stuff just don;t bother repsonding.
 

Similar History Discussions