Most painful territorial losses

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,040
Republika Srpska
I had proven that Bosnia and Croatia had common heritage at the very least.
They were connected sure, the Šubići at one point ruled over Bosnia, the Hrvatinići were Croatian and were one of the most powerful nobles in Bosnia, Bosnia was Catholic as was Croatia and Supetarski kartular claims that ban of Bosnia was one of the electors of the Croatian kings but that part was written centuries later and is not supported by other sources. The supposed borders of Tomislav's kingdom that reach the Drina are mostly fictions from the 19th century. However, a huge number of sources from medieval times point to the conclusion that Bosnia was a Serb land and was considered such by its rulers. The so-called "Bošnjani" was a word used to describe the nobility, not the people group. Orthodox Church was present in medieval Bosnia as well, not as much as the Catholics but it was there (for example there is evidence that Stefan Vukčić Kosača converted to Orthodoxy). Serbian sources also tell us that king Dragutin who ruled over parts of Bosnia converted the Bogomils there.

Duklja may or may not have been Serb state
It was.

and Neretljani may have been separate peoples alltogether
Maybe, but they were descended from Serbs, not Croats.

As for 17th century quotes, which ones do you refer to?
Bishop Vinković writing on June 28th 1640: "Raschianos SIUE Valachos" (Rascians OR Vlachs). We clearly see that the names were used to describe the same group.

Bishop Petar Domitrović writing in 1649: "cum innumerabili fere Valachicae SEU Rasciane gentis familiarum numero"

Bishop Petar Petretić writing on April 21st 1662. He mentioned a certain Martin Dubravić and said that he was "origine et natione Valacho SIUE Seruiano" Once again we see that Vlachs and the Serbs are the same thing.

Bishop Sebastijan Glavinić in 1696: "quia in partibus Croatiae mari proximis Rasciani SEU Vallachi"
 
Likes: Futurist

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
19,746
SoCal
Austria couldn't realistically keep all of the Sudetenland and Germany only ever posessed it 1938-1945. I think the loss of South Tyrol hurt Austria more and for Germany, East Prussia and Silesia.
IMHO, the Sudetenland should have been split between Austria (southern Sudetenland) and Germany (western Sudetenland and northern Sudetenland) after the end of WWI. That said, though, Weimar Germany doesn't actually appear to have cared much about the Sudetenland.
 

Shtajerc

Ad Honorem
Jul 2014
6,698
Lower Styria, Slovenia
IMHO, the Sudetenland should have been split between Austria (southern Sudetenland) and Germany (western Sudetenland and northern Sudetenland) after the end of WWI. That said, though, Weimar Germany doesn't actually appear to have cared much about the Sudetenland.
Probably because it wasn't a part of Germany before and the defeated Germany lost enough territory elsewhere.
 
Likes: Futurist

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,040
Republika Srpska
1) Croatia and Serbia are distinct countries, and Croats and Serbs are distinct peoples.
Sure.

2) Croats established themselves in Dalmatia, Illyricum and Pannonia (so basically everything east of Istria and west of Drina)
What about Einhard? He wrote that Ljudevit fled "ad Sorabos, quae natio magnam Dalmatiae partem obtinere dicitur"'. It implies that the Serbs control huge parts of Dalmatia. And even if you use Porphyrogenetus, you end up with the Serbs west of the Drina. Salines in west of the Drina, is it not?

3) Docleia and Terbounia are distinct from both Croatia and Serbia.
They are. They had different rulers there, although Porphyrogenetus claims that rulers of Travunija were subservient to rulers of Serbia.

4) Zachlumi and Pagani are descended from Serbs, although Pagania may never have been part of Serbia politically.
I agree with this.

5) Croats arrived before Serbs did, and separately from the Serbs.
Okay.

6) Serbs first came west of Drina seeking refuge in Croatia from Bulgars.
Once again, Salines. If you interpreted the land of Bosona as Bosnia, then the story is completely different.
 
Likes: Futurist

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,040
Republika Srpska
Skilitzes mentions Petrilo, ruler of Duklja, as having "ruled among Croats".
I have been unable to find this in Skylitzes' work. That quote is from Skylitzes Continuatus and any Croats mentioned there are Serbs because the text clearly says: "the people of the Serbs, that are also called Croats".

1565643500526.png
 
Likes: Futurist

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,040
Republika Srpska
Also, regarding Picard's map and his supposed borders of Croatian state. We must note that Porphyrogenetus does not say that Croats took WHOLE of Dalmatia. Porphyrogenetus later goes on to describe Croatian possessions in Dalmatia by giving us a list of their župas there. This map might be more accurate when talking about Croatian possessions in Dalmatia:

9cmQrhc.png
Sure, it includes some parts of modern Bosnia, but not the core of medieval Bosnia. Serbs WERE present west of the Drina. In fact, if we believe Einhard, they controlled most of the old Roman Dalmatia.

Apologies for the triple post. I forgot I could edit my previous one lol.
 
Dec 2014
6,482
Spain
I have a question for Serbian and Croatian friends.

Well... I know History is in Everywhere manipulated and invented.. mostly based on Romanticism-Nationalism myths (for example Reconquista in Spain is a 19th Century invention from Modesto Lafuente)...Well..

My question:

Is right this thought?

Great Serbia was used as myth by the Ultra Serbian natioalism from 19th Century... Great Serbia in reality it was Stefan Ducan´s Kingdom... as every state in Medieval Age.. it was a multi-ethnic, composite State...not Serbian... but Serbian-Albanian-Greeks etc etc.. The serbian nationalism manipulated the history (as the others nationalism) and identified a multiethnic and multicultural composite Medieval state (Ducan´s State) as a typical homogenous Nation - State in 19th and 20th Centuries.. i can see a great guilty....Mr Ilija Garachanin (in modern spelling: Ilija Garašanin) but Garachanin was based on one great nationalist or Proto-nationalist intellectual:
Vuk Karadzitch (Karadžić). This man is the father of Serbocroatian language (there is not difference between Serbian and Croatian.. same the diffeence invented by nationalism in 20th Century.. as in Spain between Galician and Portuguese... it is the same language... only nationalist difference). Karadzitch is the inventor of modern Serbocroatian language as Pompeu Fabra invented Catalan language.. a language not even was named Catalan till 1906.. Before it was named Limousin language.

As Pompeu Fabra manipulated spelling and grammar... I think Karadzitch manipulated spelling (I read he invented one alphabet for Serbo-croatian.. it is not the traditional alphabet used by Stephan Duchan)...and grammar. And he made one false and manipulated thought.. (Srbi svi i svuda...Serbians in everywhere.. Where you can hear Serbo-Croatian language that means... they are serbian! . For him..Croatians are serbians dont´want to be.

Is it a wrong thought or is right?

Regards.
 
Jul 2014
6,698
Lower Styria, Slovenia
@martin76 you are partly right about Vuk Karađić, but he didn't really invent that much. He rather reformed Serbian standard writte language to be similar to how people were actually speaking. Before that they used a redaction of Church Slavonic, which was common practice among all or most Orthodox Slavs. At the same time Karađić reformed the Serbian alphabet to be compatible with that of the Croats, who dropped the older script that basically looks like bohoričica (developped by Adam Bohorič from the Slovene Lands, I don't know if they had a separate name for it) and started using gajica, developped by Ljudevit Gaj, who modelled it after the Czech alohabet. At the same time the Croats in Zagreb and Croatia Proper stopped writing in Kajkavian and started using Štokavian. Štokavian is basically what you call Serbo-Croatian. From what I understand, both Karađić's and the Croatian version of Štokavian are based on the Eastern Hercegovina dialect, which was the literary language in the Ragusan republic.
Maki will be able to tell you more about this and Karađorđević's ties with Jernej Kopitar and Austria, which sheds light on his motivs for doing things like he did.