Most painful territorial losses

Jan 2017
3,040
Republika Srpska
  • Maki

    Maki

@martin76Maki will be able to tell you more about this and Karađorđević's ties with Jernej Kopitar and Austria, which sheds light on his motivs for doing things like he did.
I'll quote myself then:
Karadžić's main associate was Jernej Kopitar and we know that Kopitar envisioned Vuk's reform as a move that would bring the Serbs closer towards Austria and away from Russia, especially because before Vuk the accepted Serbian language was the so-called Slavenoserb language heavily influenced by Russia. In fact, in a report to Austrian authorities from 1819 Kopitar says that the reason that Orthodox Metropolitan of Karlovci Stefan Stratimirović opposed Vuk's reform was "destruction of a main barrier between his flock and Catholics." Further more, Kopitar had this to say:
"I told him (Vuk) to create a dictionary in order to fully solidify this language reform whose consequences will be suitable for Austrian Catholic majority and would sap the Russomania of these schismatic Illyrians." (A. Ivić, Arhivska građa o srpskim i hrvatskim književnim i kulturnim radnicima. 1740—1880, pg. 262).
 
Mar 2012
2,810
There are a few examples that dip into the real of current politics and are post-1991 so I will not mention them.

In history we have Britain losing the 13 Colonies. Spain losing Gibraltar (A small territory but strategically vital.) along with the rest of its European holdings. France losing its First Colonial Empire and Sweden losing its Baltic territories in the Great Northern War.
The excess Baltic regions weren’t really a loss. To be truthful, we didn’t actually like those lands. We weren’t really sure what to use them for... storage maybe?

Alsace-lorraine now! You can tell the Germans REALLY hated losing those! =)
They were so angry they declared war, and the target they decided to go with... the world! That’s anger!
 
Dec 2014
6,482
Spain
@martin76 you are partly right about Vuk Karađić, but he didn't really invent that much. He rather reformed Serbian standard writte language to be similar to how people were actually speaking. Before that they used a redaction of Church Slavonic, which was common practice among all or most Orthodox Slavs. At the same time Karađić reformed the Serbian alphabet to be compatible with that of the Croats, who dropped the older script that basically looks like bohoričica (developped by Adam Bohorič from the Slovene Lands, I don't know if they had a separate name for it) and started using gajica, developped by Ljudevit Gaj, who modelled it after the Czech alohabet. At the same time the Croats in Zagreb and Croatia Proper stopped writing in Kajkavian and started using Štokavian. Štokavian is basically what you call Serbo-Croatian. From what I understand, both Karađić's and the Croatian version of Štokavian are based on the Eastern Hercegovina dialect, which was the literary language in the Ragusan republic.
Maki will be able to tell you more about this and Karađorđević's ties with Jernej Kopitar and Austria, which sheds light on his motivs for doing things like he did.
Thanks Shtajerc for you always interesting and well founded clarifications. +1
 
Likes: Shtajerc
Sep 2011
5,562
The excess Baltic regions weren’t really a loss. To be truthful, we didn’t actually like those lands. We weren’t really sure what to use them for... storage maybe?

Alsace-lorraine now! You can tell the Germans REALLY hated losing those! =)
They were so angry they declared war, and the target they decided to go with... the world! That’s anger!
Nah, that's emphatically not true as far as Riga is concerned. Sure, all those peasant lands burdened with a hoity-toity German speaking nobility causing trouble weren't any obvious advantage, except that they were the uplands of the large and rich trading city of Riga, which was a massive money-spinner. Sweden would fight for bugger all of those lands when repeatedly invaded by Russia over a period of about a century and a half, but Riga was always defended to the teeth.

Riga was the very first target of opportunity of 17th c. Sweden just as it started to try to claw it itself towards the top of the pile of contemporary international politics (i.e. war). And why not? Stockholm, the largest city in Sweden at the time had a population of 14 000. Riga stood at 60 000.
 
Likes: Futurist
May 2014
19,746
SoCal
Nah, that's emphatically not true as far as Riga is concerned. Sure, all those peasant lands burdened with a hoity-toity German speaking nobility causing trouble weren't any obvious advantage, except that they were the uplands of the large and rich trading city of Riga, which was a massive money-spinner. Sweden would fight for bugger all of those lands when repeatedly invaded by Russia over a period of about a century and a half, but Riga was always defended to the teeth.

Riga was the very first target of opportunity of 17th c. Sweden just as it started to try to claw it itself towards the top of the pile of contemporary international politics (i.e. war). And why not? Stockholm, the largest city in Sweden at the time had a population of 14 000. Riga stood at 60 000.
So, basically, Riga was to Russia what Danzig was to Poland?
 
May 2014
19,746
SoCal
What do you mean? Riga was a Hanseatic city, a free Imperial city, and a city within the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth before being picked up by the Swedes. The Russians had nothing to do with it.
I meant in terms of its value for Russia in regards to trade. After all, Riga is on the mouth of the Daugava River, and the Daugava River goes into Russia, no?
 
Oct 2011
273
Croatia
They were connected sure, the Šubići at one point ruled over Bosnia, the Hrvatinići were Croatian and were one of the most powerful nobles in Bosnia, Bosnia was Catholic as was Croatia and Supetarski kartular claims that ban of Bosnia was one of the electors of the Croatian kings but that part was written centuries later and is not supported by other sources. The supposed borders of Tomislav's kingdom that reach the Drina are mostly fictions from the 19th century. However, a huge number of sources from medieval times point to the conclusion that Bosnia was a Serb land and was considered such by its rulers. The so-called "Bošnjani" was a word used to describe the nobility, not the people group. Orthodox Church was present in medieval Bosnia as well, not as much as the Catholics but it was there (for example there is evidence that Stefan Vukčić Kosača converted to Orthodoxy). Serbian sources also tell us that king Dragutin who ruled over parts of Bosnia converted the Bogomils there.
Tvrtko considered himself to be rightful king of Croatia, not just Bosnia, but never mentioned anything about Serbia to my knowledge. And in any case, it does not make sense for Bosnia to be Serb land, considering geography, though that does not exclude some number of Serbs from having lived there.

What about Einhard? He wrote that Ljudevit fled "ad Sorabos, quae natio magnam Dalmatiae partem obtinere dicitur"'. It implies that the Serbs control huge parts of Dalmatia. And even if you use Porphyrogenetus, you end up with the Serbs west of the Drina. Salines in west of the Drina, is it not?
That, like with everyone else, depends on how good his sources were. Which is why I prefer geographically proximate sources.

I have been unable to find this in Skylitzes' work. That quote is from Skylitzes Continuatus and any Croats mentioned there are Serbs because the text clearly says: "the people of the Serbs, that are also called Croats".
At best, that means that he confused two groups and that nothing can be established from his work. And if medieval chroniclers so easily confuse Serbs and Croats, than any sources at all are in question.

That however is unlikely to be the case, since Skylitzes clearly lists "Croats, Serbs, Zachlouboi, Terbounitotes, Kanalites, Diocletians, Rhentanoi". Meaning that, regardless of any confusion in specific cases, he acknowledges them as different groups.
John Skylitzes. A Synopsis Of Byzantine History (trans. By J. Wortley) ( 2010) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
 
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