Most painful territorial losses

Maki

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Tvrtko considered himself to be rightful king of Croatia, not just Bosnia, but never mentioned anything about Serbia to my knowledge.
Tvrtko actually claimed to be the rightful ruler of Serbia due to his connections with the Nemanjić dynasty.

And in any case, it does not make sense for Bosnia to be Serb land, considering geography, though that does not exclude some number of Serbs from having lived there.
I don't really see how geography plays a part. Sure, it is today accepted that main Serb lands are east of the Drina, however that does not mean the situation was the same in the past.

That, like with everyone else, depends on how good his sources were. Which is why I prefer geographically proximate sources.
I agree. However, I think we should keep Einhard's work in mind.

At best, that means that he confused two groups and that nothing can be established from his work. And if medieval chroniclers so easily confuse Serbs and Croats, than any sources at all are in question.
Not wrong. This also means that using Petrilo to claim that Duklja was Croatian cannot be justified. If anything, it is another proof that it is Serbian, but I see your point.

That however is unlikely to be the case, since Skylitzes clearly lists "Croats, Serbs, Zachlouboi, Terbounitotes, Kanalites, Diocletians, Rhentanoi".
John Skylitzes. A Synopsis Of Byzantine History (trans. By J. Wortley) ( 2010) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Of course he does. These are groups that had separate states or statelets. It is similar to the whole Austrian-German population. Austrians clearly considered themselves German for a long time, yet were never a part of a unified German state and therefore Germany did not include Austria, despite the Germanness of the Austrians. Serbia (better term would be Rascia) did not include Pagania for example, despite the Serbness of the Neretljani.

I already quoted Skylitzes as far as Stefan Vojislav and his ethnicity are concerned, but I will do it again:
John Skylitzes. A Synopsis Of Byzantine History (trans. By J. Wortley) ( 2010) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Now for Mihailo Vojislavljević:
John Skylitzes. A Synopsis Of Byzantine History (trans. By J. Wortley) ( 2010) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
 
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Maki

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Now, returning to the topic of this thread, of course Kosovo for Serbia but actually for the Albanians as well for a long time. Kosovo was only a part of Albania during WW2 but Kosovo being a part of Serbia and then Yugoslavias was considered a painful loss for the Albanian side as well.
 
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Futurist

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Now, returning to the topic of this thread, of course Kosovo for Serbia but actually for the Albanians as well for a long time. Kosovo was only a part of Albania during WW2 but Kosovo being a part of Serbia and then Yugoslavias was considered a painful loss for the Albanian side as well.
When did the Albanians lose Kosovo?

Also, do you think that the Great Powers should have forced Serbia to give up Kosovo (and Macedonia) in 1912-1913?
 

Maki

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It was not under Albanian control for quite a while.

Of course not. Serbian Army fought to take those lands from the Ottomans. Why should the Great Powers take those lands away from Serbia? They already forced Serbia to give up its conquests along the coast.
 
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Futurist

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It was not under Albanian control for quite a while.
Do you remember the exact year when the Albanians lost control of it?

Of course not. Serbian Army fought to take those lands from the Ottomans. Why should the Great Powers take those lands away from Serbia? They already forced Serbia to give up its conquests along the coast.
Makes one wonder if the Great Powers should have let Serbia take Albania as well. I mean, Yes, this would have been contrary to national self-determination, but it would have put all Albanians inside of Serbia and would have also diverted Serbia's attention away from A-H.
 

Maki

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Well, as I said, Kosovo was never a part of the Albanian state, if we exclude WW2, but when Serbia took over in 1912...it was a disaster for Albanian nationalistic aspirations especially because the Serbs were their biggest rivals as far as Kosovo was concerned. There was a lot of bad blood. Serbian Army committed many massacres against the Albanians during the Balkan Wars, though this can be seen as a revenge for more than a century of near-constant Albanian attacks on the Serbs in Kosovo.
 
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Tvrtko actually claimed to be the rightful ruler of Serbia due to his connections with the Nemanjić dynasty.
Yes, I remembered that after.

I don't really see how geography plays a part. Sure, it is today accepted that main Serb lands are east of the Drina, however that does not mean the situation was the same in the past.
Geography has major impact on demographic distribution. For example, border between Celtic-majority and Germanic-majority areas was on the Rhine, from Iron Age at least to fall of Roman Empire. Northern ethnic border of Croatians, especially after Hungarians came, was on Drava. And so on. Granted, there are exceptions, but these usually do not last long. It is thus logical that south-eastern Croatian ethnic border was on Drina, possibly continuing with Neretva though latter is not as significant barrier as Drina, as far as I'm aware.

Of course he does. These are groups that had separate states or statelets. It is similar to the whole Austrian-German population. Austrians clearly considered themselves German for a long time, yet were never a part of a unified German state and therefore Germany did not include Austria, despite the Germanness of the Austrians. Serbia (better term would be Rascia) did not include Pagania for example, despite the Serbness of the Neretljani.

I already quoted Skylitzes as far as Stefan Vojislav and his ethnicity are concerned, but I will do it again:
John Skylitzes. A Synopsis Of Byzantine History (trans. By J. Wortley) ( 2010) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Now for Mihailo Vojislavljević:
John Skylitzes. A Synopsis Of Byzantine History (trans. By J. Wortley) ( 2010) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Priest of Doclea refers to Croatians in southern Dalmatia - Red Croatia, extending from Neretva along the coast down to Albania. Apparently few other Byzantine sources also confirm that. Of course, that does not necessarily exclude a mixed (possibly Serb-majority) population - it is not that uncommon for a ruling class to give area its name despite being minority.
When Ethnicity Did Not Matter in the Balkans
 
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  • Maki

    Maki

Geography has major impact on demographic distribution. For example, border between Celtic-majority and Germanic-majority areas was on the Rhine, from Iron Age at least to fall of Roman Empire. Northern ethnic border of Croatians, especially after Hungarians came, was on Drava. And so on. Granted, there are exceptions, but these usually do not last long. It is thus logical that south-eastern Croatian ethnic border was on Drina, possibly continuing with Neretva though latter is not as significant barrier as Drina, as far as I'm aware.
I see. However, Drina was a border. Border between Serbia and Bosnia. John Kinnamos does say that Bosnia is a part of the Serb lands, but he also says that people there have their own traditions so Drina was a border. Not an ethnic border, but a border nonetheless.

Priest of Doclea refers to Croatians in southern Dalmatia - Red Croatia, extending from Neretva along the coast down to Albania. Apparently few other Byzantine sources also confirm that. Of course, that does not necessarily exclude a mixed (possibly Serb-majority) population - it is not that uncommon for a ruling class to give area its name despite being minority.
When Ethnicity Did Not Matter in the Balkans
I wouldn't really use Dukljanin as a source. His work is highly unreliable and known for outlandish claims not supported by other sources. And this is not the case of me dismissing a source because I don't like what it says, Dukljanin also writes about Serb history and it is unreliable and quite blatantly wrong there as well (most notably inventing whole dynasties like the Svevladovići).