Muslim hypocrisy?

Bart Dale

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
7,095
Simple. I read the Quran.
Some of the passages seem contradictory in th Koran, but I.am.told that is because some passages were later replaced by later verses. How do you decide which verses are the later ones, if that is the case?

Second, some of the verses by themselves seem aambiguous and are interpreted by different Muslims differently. Using just the Koran, how do you interpret what the verses say? I must confess when I first tried to read the Koran, knowing nothing about the Koan or Islam, I found many verses unclear. Only.stories from he Hadith heled explain them to me, but without the Hadith, what do you rely on to explain them?

For example, how do you interpret 9:29, and what is the basis of your interpretation? It says to fight against those who do not believe in Allah or the Last Day, and do not forbid what Allah has forbidden. How do you know whether it means physically fight against someone, and literally hit them, or just to struggle against them, like you fight against poverty?
 
Sep 2015
1,807
England
Abrahamic religions in general don't accept "false" religions on paper. Let's not pretend as if it's just the Quran which is rife with damnation against false believers. But modern liberal mindsets tend to soften the edges and have people put much less weight on these parts and rather focus on 'love thy neighbor' teachings that's more in line with modern morality. After all, once you take the step away from reading every sentence at face value, there is a lot of room to interpret holy texts any way you want. You can bet that .
You would think so. But one thing about whether, 'Muslim's born in globalized/accepting communities are much more open-minded themselves, than a Muslim born in an extremist community', is that this is, of course, technically logical; an entirely reasonable, logical assumption. So. Is it the case? Do we have any evidence that it is, in fact, pretty well the case?
 

HackneyedScribe

Ad Honorem
Feb 2011
6,546
If you think it is a reasonable and logical case, then it is those who question said logic that needs to bring in the evidence to prove otherwise.
 
Apr 2018
1,562
Mythical land.
I'm no muslim, but the majority of Muslims I do know take the hadiths with a massive grain of salt. The hadiths are compilations of quotes, many of whom are claims that a person said that a person said that a person said something. In other words, unreliable.
Well, so is quran, bunch of people saying what muhammad said, thenn a guy deciding which version of words should be kept and which burned
 
May 2015
8
The Netherlands
They had the quran memorised during the life time of Muhammad. It was also written during his life time on different materials. One sentence more or less, to me personal knowing what kind of sentence it is, it doesn't matter that much. We have seen how both Muslims and non-Muslims have taken verses from the Quran out of context, so I understand the fear of how some words would be misused.

Anyway, I didn't read the entire thread, so my apologies if what I'm saying has been mentioned already, but going to the original question, the kaaba was to be a place where muslims would worship. That's why the idols there were destroyed. They were left intact in other places which weren't meant for muslim worship and where people could keep their own religions if they wished so. I never saw other religions being practised in the Vatican, churches, the synagogue (muslims don't pray there, christians don't either, neither do hindus or other religious people), etc. They all have their separate places of worship.

There are verses in the Quran saying one must be tolerant towards other religions. Yes, it says islam is the only true religion and if attacked, defend yourself and then you may fight, it also says things like:
To you your religion, and to me my religion
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation
(doesn't say kill the non-muslim, but to each his own)

Had God not driven back the people, some by the means of others, there had been destroyed cloisters and churches, oratories and mosques, wherein God's Name is much mentioned. Assuredly God will help him who helps Him -- surely God is All-strong, All-mighty
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation
(so God protected places of worship of other religions too, even during war times, muslims are to leave them alone too actually, doesn't say they should all be destroyed and not exist anymore)

Call thou to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and good admonition, and dispute with them in the better way. Surely thy Lord knows very well those who have gone astray from His way, and He knows very well those who are guided.
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Dispute not with the People of the Book save in the fairer manner, except for those of them that do wrong; and say, 'We believe in what has been sent down to us, and what has been sent down to you; our God and your God is One, and to Him we have surrendered.'
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation
(so have discussions in peace, don't punish nor kill them)

Say: 'The truth is from your Lord; so let whosoever will believe, and let whosoever will disbelieve.'
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation
(doesn't say here either to kill any non-muslim, it just means God himself will punish whomever and however he sees fit)

Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation
(so you if the attackers surrender, let them and stop fighting, don't kill them in that case, this also means you are not allowed to attack civilians, you are not allowed to attack people who are not fighting you, are in fact only to fight the people who start the attack to defend yourself, you are not allowed to start a fight or a war with anyone, you only fight when needed to defend your family, your home, your country, yourself)

There are and there will always be arguments for and against anything. Important is nuance and looking at each situation to see what is happening there, the context of verses. People keep referring to verses saying kill them all, without looking at what theses verses refer to: fights against people coming to kill you and who won't stop until you're dead, yes, in those cases it does allow one to defend oneself and fight back. But Quran doesn't teach you to just attack and kill anyone who disagrees and is different, it clearly says that when people don't come to kill you, you should leave them alone.
 
Last edited:
Apr 2018
1,562
Mythical land.
They had the quran memorised during the life time of Muhammad. It was also written during his life time on different materials. One sentence more or less, to me personal knowing what kind of sentence it is, it doesn't matter that much. We have seen how both Muslims and non-Muslims have taken verses from the Quran out of context, so I understand the fear of how some words would be misused.

Anyway, I didn't read the entire thread, so my apologies if what I'm saying has been mentioned already, but going to the original question, the kaaba was to be a place where muslims would worship. That's why the idols there were destroyed. They were left intact in other places which weren't meant for muslim worship and where people could keep their own religions if they wished so. I never saw other religions being practised in the Vatican, churches, the synagogue (muslims don't pray there, christians don't either, neither do hindus or other religious people), etc. They all have their separate places of worship.

There are verses in the Quran saying one must be tolerant towards other religions. Yes, it says islam is the only true religion and if attacked, defend yourself and then you may fight, it also says things like:
To you your religion, and to me my religion
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation
(doesn't say kill the non-muslim, but to each his own)

Had God not driven back the people, some by the means of others, there had been destroyed cloisters and churches, oratories and mosques, wherein God's Name is much mentioned. Assuredly God will help him who helps Him -- surely God is All-strong, All-mighty
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation
(so God protected places of worship of other religions too, even during war times, muslims are to leave them alone too actually, doesn't say they should all be destroyed and not exist anymore)

Call thou to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and good admonition, and dispute with them in the better way. Surely thy Lord knows very well those who have gone astray from His way, and He knows very well those who are guided.
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Dispute not with the People of the Book save in the fairer manner, except for those of them that do wrong; and say, 'We believe in what has been sent down to us, and what has been sent down to you; our God and your God is One, and to Him we have surrendered.'
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation
(so have discussions in peace, don't punish nor kill them)

Say: 'The truth is from your Lord; so let whosoever will believe, and let whosoever will disbelieve.'
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation
(doesn't say here either to kill any non-muslim, it just means God himself will punish whomever and however he sees fit)

Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation
(so you if the attackers surrender, let them and stop fighting, don't kill them in that case, this also means you are not allowed to attack civilians, you are not allowed to attack people who are not fighting you, are in fact only to fight the people who start the attack to defend yourself, you are not allowed to start a fight or a war with anyone, you only fight when needed to defend your family, your home, your country, yourself)

There are and there will always be arguments for and against anything. Important is nuance and looking at each situation to see what is happening there, the context of verses. People keep referring to verses saying kill them all, without looking at what theses verses refer to: fights against people coming to kill you and who won't stop until you're dead, yes, in those cases it does allow one to defend oneself and fight back. But Quran doesn't teach you to just attack and kill anyone who disagrees and is different, it clearly says that when people don't come to kill you, you should leave them alone.
Yeah you should read the thread, common excuse like these have been debunked, quran never says kill to defend in verse of sword rather kill untill religion is for allah.

And kaaba was place of idol worship, its proven by the fact that idols were there and they were being worshipped, by logic of muhammad himself almost every single mosque made today can be destoyed because many if not most of mosques are actually made by destroying previously used palces of worship, this is especially true for regions like india.
 
May 2015
8
The Netherlands
I've heard the so called debunks before. I'm giving my opinion, not here to change your mind. This is how I view islam, this is my interpretation of the Quran and after years of reading arguments for and against, this is how I personally see it. Nobody ever denied that idols were worshipped in kaaba, don't twist my words into something I never said. Kaaba became a special place for islamic worship, hence the destroying of idols in that place. Better than putting people on the rock in the desert sun just because they became muslims by these same idol worshippers. The idols were destroyed, Muhammad asked muslims and pagans to forgive each others past and live together in peace now. Yes, I know, you disagree.

Originally the Kaaba was not built for idol worship, only in later years people began using it for whorsip: The Ka’aba, The House Of Allah
Of course, opinions vary on this. In islam we believe Ibrahim (Abraham) had built the kaaba, and it was never meant for idol worship. Hence the logic of Muhammad on that one and hence his forbidding his followers to destroy any other house of worship from other religions.

Btw, I clearly said: We have seen how both Muslims and non-Muslims have taken verses from the Quran out of context,
So yes, many Muslims and many people calling themselves muslims do wrong things and things which are even clearly forbidden in context. I never said no muslim ever did anything wrong. So again, don't twist my words into something I never said. Thank you.

Every time a Hindu rapes someone in India or kills someone in India for eating beef or even thinking that person ate beef, I don't blame the entire hindu religion. I respect it and know there are good people and bad people who are Hindu. Same goes for any other religion. It's strange to me how some of you start blaming an entire religion or population for the mistakes of a smaller group who does something wrong.
 
Last edited:
Apr 2018
1,562
Mythical land.
I've heard the so called debunks before. I'm giving my opinion, not here to change your mind. This is how I view islam, this is my interpretation of the Quran and after years of reading arguments for and against, this is how I personally see it. Nobody ever denied that idols were worshipped in kaaba, don't twist my words into something I never said. Kaaba became a special place for islamic worship, hence the destroying of idols in that place. Better than putting people on the rock in the desert sun just because they became muslims by these same idol worshippers. The idols were destroyed, Muhammad asked muslims and pagans to forgive each others past and live together in peace now. Yes, I know, you disagree.

Btw, I clearly said: We have seen how both Muslims and non-Muslims have taken verses from the Quran out of context,
So yes, many Muslims and many people calling themselves muslims do wrong things and things which are even clearly forbidden in context. I never said no muslim ever did anything wrong. So again, don't twist my words into something I never said. Thank you.

Every time a Hindu rapes someone in India or kills someone in India for eating beef or even thinking that person ate beef, I don't blame the entire hindu religion. I respect it and know there are good people and bad people who are Hindu. Same goes for any other religion. It's strange to me how some of you start blaming an entire religion or population for the mistakes of a smaller group who does something wrong.
So much confusion in your one post,and your opening line shows that there is no point to reply but this reply is meant for the readers

1st things first, don't conflate islam with muslims, islam as a religion is an idea, when i say that things are wrong with islam, doesn't mean muslims. Its really funny that you have to twist my words to make any sense but you sre complaining about me twisting your words(which to best of my knowledge i never did)

I am not blaming islam for action few muslims, rather because these are action by the founder of religion of islam, a religion that without its founder is nothing,remove muhammad and Islam is nothing, you have no quran no hadith, nothing.

I never stated that you said idols were not worhipped,i said that reason given by muhammad was nothing less than bigotry and he did set the precedent that later resulted in destruction of thousands other places of worship.
And wth do you mean by forgive each other?? By earliest sources its clear that muhammad give two choice islam or death to pagans and destroued their idols, if it was only the place that mattered than he would have shifted the idols to another place rather than destroying it, the truth is that islam is bigoted religion founded by a bigot,if you don't want to accept this then its fine by me, truth doesn't depend on your or mine acceptance

Surely both take verses out of context, but with 9.29 its usually islamic apologist who are guilty of this