My List of the Greatest Commanders in History

Lord Oda Nobunaga

Ad Honorem
Jan 2015
5,648
Ontario, Canada
You are making the counter that you can claim Liu Bang is inept because they aren't the same?

Nobunaga didn't execute any of his commanders, but he exiled people who were with him from the very beginning.

At Inogahara, from what I read from 信長公記, it had very little to do with tactics. His troops were getting pushed back, and he gave out a pretty good roar, and the enemy got confused and in the confusion, he was able to push through. They were confused because Nobunaga was the official leader of the Oda Clan, and Oda soldiers were not exactly thrilled attacking him. Did he plan that? I don't know, I don't think he did. I mean, I wouldn't bet my life on me shouting will result in enemies routing.

And you can say as many time as you want, the reality is different. You have plenty of pitch battles where matters are settled. For example, Mori at Battle of Miyajima. In fact, you can say when you can't fight decisive battles, you resort to sieges and attritions and such. Look at the Azai's defense. When the Asakura wasn't having brain farts, they took the field, why? Because that's more efficient. And when the Asakura decided that it's gona be cold and we better bail and hang our allies out to dry, Azai switch to attrition and sieges.

And aren't you just agreeing with me that Mino was a situation of diplomacy and intrigue? In the same book, it was said that the situation turned dramatically when Mino Triumvirate joined Nobunaga in Aug and Mino surrendered in Sep. Whereas in previous year, Nobunaga was just stalling at Kiso river. So realistically, you can't tell me that in 1566 June, Nobunaga pass the Kiso river (or was he stuck around there I can't really tell) and just enter a stalemate around Kiso, and then suddenly in 1567 Sep he captured everything after the Mino Triumvirate joined him because it was all military.
No, I am making the argument that I can put Oda Nobunaga up on a pedestal but I don't have to do the same for Liu Bang.

Not sure what your point is here. Exile is a far better punishment than execution, not to mention that in this case exile only means being removed from their fiefs and no longer serving Nobunaga. Hayashi and Sakuma were far from the most loyal. Though at least Sakuma did not outright rebel, he was removed from his position because Nobunaga accused him of ineptitude in command during the siege of the Ishiyama Honganji and neglecting his duties. Hayashi had been a problematic vassal and a constant naysayer, he was then the architect of the revolt which led to the Battle of Inogahara and the death of his brother Hayashi Mimasaka in battle.

That is far from what happened at Inogahara and you can find that out in the exact same source (Shinchokoki). Obviously that is an embellishment by Ota Gyuichi since he constantly makes statements like that, are we then to believe that Nobunaga could defeat entire armies by screaming at them? Obviously Nobunaga managed to rally his line and defeated the 1,000 men of Shibata in combat. But the Shinchokoki says a lot more than that.

The Battle of Miyajima fought by Mori Motonari was the exception not the rule. Even then it was a combined land and naval operation with greater consequences. You will find that the Mori also had to fight many more sieges than battles. As I pointed out with Shingen and Kenshin they did not fight that many pitched battles either and when they did the majority of them lacked any worthwhile repercussions (in fact the only truly brilliant tactical engagement with any strategic importance was Sezawa).

The Asakura also took to the field with the Azai, yes they were a little slow to react but they never abandoned their allies. Every engagement where they faced Nobunaga they were defeated and failed in their operational goal. Whenever they took to the field after that they were not trying to face Nobunaga in battle but rather they were attempting to outmaneuver Nobunaga, none of which actually succeeded anyway. In 1572 Nobunaga ended up trapping them in their own camp from where they barely escaped. Even if they had moved quicker the emphasis would have been on capitalizing on time in order to pull off a maneuver, not in defeating Nobunaga in a tactical engagement, which they had already given up on. That led to Nobunaga wiping them both out in 1573 and reclaiming Kyoto, which led to his abolishing the Ashikaga Shogunate and banishing Ashikaga Yoshiaki.

Nobunaga was winning in Mino province up to 1566. Grabbing the vassals that he did in 1567 only led to his taking Inabayama and Saito Tatsuoki was hard pressed even before that. What was that like the second time Nobunaga marched up to his castle with an entire army or something. Only reason it lasted so long was because *drum roll* as I said warfare was not about pitched battles, it was about attrition and sieges. If the Saito clan had the resources before then why did they simply not pull Nobunaga into a pitched battle and defeat him once and for all?
 

Lord Oda Nobunaga

Ad Honorem
Jan 2015
5,648
Ontario, Canada
I was bored so I decided to resurrect this.

After reflecting on posts by nuclearguy, frogsofwar, TotalAaron and pugsville I've decided to give more focus to the Coalition. So I will be researching the careers of Gebhard von Blucher, Mikhail Barclay de Tolly, Peter Wittgenstein and Levin August von Bennigsen. These generals I deem to be the most promising of the Coalition.

Recently I did a brief but in depth look at the Duke of Wellington. My impression of his strategic abilities was completely shattered. While this does not mean that he was a bad general it is now my view that he is not comparable to someone like Napoleon. Due to this I decided that if Wellington could be on the list then so too can Archduke Charles. For this reason I have put Archduke Charles in the list.

In other news I am also looking at Medieval commanders. These are the ones I am looking into so far. Please let me know if there is anyone else I should look into.

Muqan Qaghan (Turkic Khaganate) (520-572)
Theoderic (Ostrogoths) (454-526)
Chlothar (Franks) (497-561)
Urien Rheged (Rheged) (500's)
Chlothar II (Franks) (584-629)
Cadwallon ap Cadfan (Kingdom of Gwynedd) (600-634)
Cynddylan ap Cyndrwyn (Principality of Powys) (620-656)
Penda of Mercia (Kingdom of Mercia) (606-655)
Ecgfrith of Northumbria (Kingdom of Northumbria) (645-685)
Amr ibn al-As (Rashiduns/Umayyads) (585-664)
Musa ibn Nusayr (Umayyad Caliphate) (640-716)
Tariq bin Ziyad (Umayyad Caliphate) (670-720)
Leo III the Isaurian (Byzantine Empire) (675-741)
Muhammad ibn Marwan (Umayyad Caliphate) (660-720)
Maslama ibn Abd al-Malik (Umayyad Caliphate) (680-738)
Suluk Khagan (Turgesh Khagan) (690-738)
Constantine V (718-775)
Abd al-Malik ibn Salih (Abbasid Caliphate) (750-812)
Khaydhar ibn Kawus al-Afshin (Abbasid Caliphate) (790-841)
Offa of Mercia (Kingdom of Mercia) (730-796)
Egbert of Wessex (Kingdom of Wessex) (771-839)
Louis the Pious (Frankish Empire) (778-840)
Niall Caille (Kingdom Ailech) (800-846)
Mael Sechnaill mac Maele Ruanaid (Kingdom of Meath) (820-862)
Aethelwulf (Wessex) (800-858)
Edward the Elder (Kingdom of the Anglo-Saxons) (874-924)
Aethelstan (Kingdom of the Anglo-Saxons) (894-939)
Henry the Fowler (Germany, East Frankia) (876-936)
Nikephoros II (Byzantine Empire) (912-969)
John Tzimiskes (Byzantine Empire) (925-976)
John Kourkouas (Byzantine Empire) (890-946)
Almanzor (Caliphate of Cordoba) (938-1002)
Muhammad bin Chaghri "Alp Arslan" (Seljuks) (1029-1072)
Mael Sechnaill mac Domnaill (Kingdom of Meath) (949-1022)
Rajaraja Chola (Chola) (947-1014)
Rajendra Chola (Chola) (980-1044)
Boleslaw the Great (Poland) (967-1025)
George Maniakes (Byzantine Empire) (998-1043)
Yusuf ibn Tashfin (Almoravids) (1009-1106)
Roger of Sicily (1031-1101)
Bohemond of Antioch (Tarento, Antioch) (1058-1111)
David IV of Georgia (Georgia) (1073-1125)
Alfonso I (Aragon) (1073-1134)
Abd al-Mu'min (Almohad Caliphate) (1094-1163)
Alexios Komnenos (Byzantine Empire) (1048-1118)
John II Komnenos (Byzantine Empire) (1087-1143)
Manuel Komnenos (Byzantine Empire) (1118-1180)
Alfonso VII (Castile) (1105-1157)
Afonso Henriques (Portugal) (1106-1185)
David Soslan (Georgia) (1150-1207)
Abu Yusuf al-Mansur (Almohads) (1160-199)
Owain Gwynedd (Wales) (1100-1170)
Henry II of England (Normandy & Anjou, England) (1133-1189)
Philip Augustus (France) (1165-1223)
Simon de Montfort (France, Crusaders) (1175-1218)
Frederick II (Holy Roman Empire, Sicily) (1194-1250)
Muhammad I (Granada) (1195-1273)
Ferdinand III (Castile) (1199-1252)
James I (Aragon) (1208-1276)
Sundiata Keita (Mali) (1217-1255)
Aleksander Nevsky (Novgorod, Vladimir, Kiev) (1221-1263)
Alfonso X (Castile) (1221-1284)
Muhammad II (Granada) (1235-1302)
Peter III (Aragon) (1239-1285)
Leszek II the Black (Poland) (1241-1288)
Ladislaus IV of Hungary (Hungary) (1262-1290)
Mu'izz ad-Din Muhammad (Ghurid Sultanate) (1149-1206)
Ghiyath al-Din Muhammad (Ghurid Sultanate) (1139-1202)
Shamas-ud-Din Iltutmish (Delhi Sultanate) (1180-1236)
Alauddin Khilji (Delhi Sultanate) (1266-1316)
Muhammad bin Tughluq (Delhi Sultanate) (1300-1351)
Edward Bruce (Kingdom of Ireland) (1280-1318)
Peter IV (Aragon) (1319-1387)
John Hawkwood (1320-1394)
Alfonso XI (Castile) (1311-1350)
Henry II of Castile (Castile) (1334-1379)
Alberico da Barbiano (Papal States/Milan) (1344-1409)
Muzio Attendolo Sforza (Bologna/Florence/Naples)
Dmitry Ivanovich Donskoy (Moscow, Vladimir) (1350-1389)
Prokop the Great (Hussites) (1380-1434)
Moctezuma (Aztec Empire) (1398-1469)
Tupac Inca Yupanqui (Inca Empire) (1440-1493)
Sonni Ali (Songhai Empire) (1430-1492)
Askia the Great (Songhai Empire) (1443-1538)
Deva Raya (Vijayanagar Empire) (1380-1422)
Deva Raya II (Vijayanagar Empire) (1400-1446)
Krishna Deva Raya (Vijayanagar Empire) (1471-1529)
Aliya Rama Raya (Vijayanagar Empire) (1485-1565)
Sher Shah Suri (Sur Empire) (1486-1545)
Francesco I Sforza (Milan) (1401-1466)
Braccio da Montone (Florence/Naples/Papal States) (1368-1424)
Carlo Malatesta (Milan/Papal States/Venice) (1368-1429)
Federico da Montefeltro (Urbino) (1422-1482)
Ivan III (Moscow) (1440-1505)
Matthias Corvinus (Hungary) (1443-1490)
Richard III (England) (1452-1485)
Maximilian I (Holy Roman Empire) (1459-1519)
Muhammad Shaybani (Uzbek Khanate) (1451-1510)
Ferdinand II (Aragon) (1452-1516)
Louis XII (France) (1462-1515)
 

Lord Oda Nobunaga

Ad Honorem
Jan 2015
5,648
Ontario, Canada
The list so far:

Bronze Age
Sharrukin of Akkad (Akkad) (2360 BC-2279 BC)
Hammurabi (Babylon) (1810 BC-1750 BC)
Ahmose (Egypt) (1560 BC-1514 BC)
Thutmosis III (Egypt) (1481 BC-1425 BC)
Suppiluliumas (Hittites) (1370 BC-1322 BC)
Seti Merenptah (Egypt) (1330 BC-1279 BC)
Muwatallis (Hittites) 1 (1310 BC-1270 BC)
Hattusili III (Hittites) 1 (1300 BC-1237 BC)
Ramesses III (Egypt)(Admiral) (1217 BC-1155 BC)

Iron Age
Ashurnasirpal II (Assyria) (905 BC-859 BC)
Tukultipilashur III (Assyria) (770 BC-727 BC)
Sharrukin II (Assyria) (760 BC-705 BC)
Ashurbanipal (Assyria) (685 BC-627 BC)
Nebuchadnezzar II (Babylon) (634 BC-562 BC)
Kurosh the Great (Achaemenids) (576 BC-530 BC)
Darayaus the Great (Achaemenids) (550 BC-486 BC)

Classical & Hellenistic Era
Themistokles (Athens/Achaemenids)(Athina)(Admiral) (524 BC-459 BC)
Perikles (Athens, Delian League) 2(Admiral) (495 BC-429 BC)
Phormion (Athens, Delian League) 2(Admiral) (470 BC-427 BC)
Alkibiades (Athens/Sparta) 3(Admiral) (450 BC-404 BC)
Thrasybulos (Athens, Exiles) 3(Admiral) (440 BC-388 BC)
Lysandros (Sparta) 3(Admiral) (440 BC-395 BC)
Agesilaos II (Sparta) 4 (444 BC-360 BC)
Epaminondas (Thebes)(Thebai) 4 (410 BC-362 BC)
Philippos II (Makedonia) (382 BC-336 BC)
Alexandros III the Great (Makedonia) 5 (356 BC-323 BC)
Antigonos Monophthalmos (Makedonia) 5 (382 BC-301 BC)
Seleukos Nikator (Ptolemies/Seleukids)(Ptolemaike/Seleukeia) 5 (358 BC-281 BC)
Chandragupta Maurya (Maurya) (340 BC-297 BC)
Agathokles (Syracuse)(Syrakousai) (361 BC-289 BC)
Pyrrhos of Epeiros (Epirus)(Epeiros) (319 BC-272 BC)
Kleomenes III (Sparta) (260 BC-219 BC)
Antiochos III (Seleucids) 8 (241 BC-187 BC)

Roman Republic Era
Hamilcar Barca (Carthage)(Qart Hadasht) (275 BC-228 BC)
Hannibal Barca (Carthage/Seleukeia/Bithynia) 8(Admiral) (247 BC-183 BC)
Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus (Rome) 8 (236 BC-183 BC)
Titus Quinctius Flamininus (Rome) 8 (229 BC-174 BC)
Viriathus (Lusitani) (160 BC-139 BC)
Gaius Marius (Rome, Populares) 9 (157 BC-86 BC)
Lucius Cornelius Sulla (Rome, Optimates) 9 (138 BC-78 BC)
Quintus Sertorius (Rome, Optimates) 9 (123 BC-72 BC)
Lucius Licinius Lucullus (Rome, Optimates) 9 (118 BC-56 BC)
Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus (Rome, Populares/Optimates) 9 (106 BC-48 BC)
Gaius Julius Caesar (Rome, Populares) 10 (100 BC-44 BC)
Marcus Antonius (Rome, Populares/Triumvirs/Antonians) 10 (83 BC-30 BC)
Monaeses Surena (Mesopotamia, Parthia) 10 (83 BC-20 BC)
Publius Ventidius Bassus (Rome, Populares/Triumvirs/Antonians) 10 (100 BC-27 BC)
Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa (Second Triumvirate, Roman Empire)(Admiral) (63 BC-12 BC)

Roman Empire Era
Tiberius Claudius Nero (Rome) 11 (42 BC-37)
Nero Claudius Drusus Germanicus (Rome) 11 (38 BC-9BC)
Marcus Ulpius Trajanus (Rome) (53-117)
Septimius Severus (Rome, Severans) (145-211)
Ardashir (Sassanids) (180-242)
Shapur the Great (Sassanids) (215-270)
Lucius Domitius Aurelianus (Rome) (214-275)
Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus the Great (West, Rome) (272-337)
Shapur II (Sassanids) (309-379)
Julian the Apostate (Gaul, Rome) (331-363)
Samudragupta (Gupta) (320-375)
Flavius Aetius (Western Rome) 13 (391-454)
Attila the Hun (Huns) 13 (400-453)
Genseric (Vandals)(Admiral) (389-477)
Clovis (Frankish Kingdom) (466-511)
Flavius Belisarius (Byzantines) 14 (505-565)
Narses (Byzantines) 14 (478-573)
Flavius Heraclius (Heraclians, Byzantines) (575-641)
Muhammad (Muslim Arabs) 15 (570-632)
Khalid bin Walid (Pagan Arabs/Muslim Arabs, Rashidun) 15 (585-642)
Muawiyah (Rashidun/Ummayad) 15(Admiral) (602-680)

Medieval Era
Charles Martel (Frankish Kingdom) (686-741)
Pepin the Younger (Frankish Kingdom) (714-768)
Charles the Great (Frankish Kingdom) (742-814)
Krum the Fearsome (Bulgarians) (760-814)
Abu Muslim Khorasani (Abbasids) (718-755)
Harun al-Rashid (Abbasids) (763-809)
Tahir ibn Husayn "al-A 'war" (Khurasan, Abbasids) (775-822)
Alfred the Great (Wessex) (849-899)
Simeon the Great (Bulgarians) (864-927)
Otto the Great (Saxony, East Frankia) (912-973)
Brian Boru (Munster, Ireland) (941-1014)
Basil the Bulgar Slayer (Byzantines) (958-1025)
Mahmud of Ghazni (Ghaznavids) (971-1030)
Tughril (Seljuks) (990-1063)
Canute the Great (England, Denmark, Norway)(Admiral) (995-1035)
Robert Guiscard (Apulia, Calabria, Sicily) (1015-1085)
William the Conqueror (Normandy, England) (1028-1087)
Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar (Castile, Valencia/Zaragoza) (1043-1099)
Frederick Barbarossa (Burgundy, Holy Roman Empire) 17 (1122-1190)
Nur ad-Din Zangi (Zengids) 17 (1118-1174)
Saladin (Zengids/Ayyubids) 17 (1138-1193)
Richard the Lion Heart (England) 17 (1157-1199)
Baibars (Ayyubids, Mamluks) (1223-1277)
Ruggiero di Lauria (Aragon)(Admiral) (1245-1305)
Edward Longshanks (England) (1239-1307)
Robert the Bruce (Carrick, Scotland) (1274-1329)
Vettor Pisani (Venice)(Admiral) (1324-1380)
Edward III (England) 19(Admiral) (1312-1377)
Edward the Black Prince (England) 19 (1330-1376)
Bertrand du Guesclin (France) 19 (1320-1380)
Nuno Alvares Pereira (Portugal) (1360-1431)
Timur (Chagatai/Timurids) (1330-1405)
Jan Zizka (Hussites, Taborites) (1360-1424)
Francesco Bussone da Carmagnola (Milan/Venice) (1382-1432)
Henry V (England) (1386-1422)
Joan of Arc (France) (1412-1431)
Edward IV (England, House of York) (1442-1483)
George Kastrioti (Kastrioti) 22 (1405-1468)
Janos Hunyadi (Jagiellon/Habsburg, Hungary) 22 (1406-1456)
Stefan III Cel Mare (Moldovia) 22 (1433-1504)
Murad II (Ottomans) 22 (1404-1451)
Mehmed II (Ottomans) 22 (1432-1481)

Renaissance Period
Gonzalo Fernandez de Cordoba (Spain) (1453-1515)
Cesare Borgia (Papal States/Navarre) (1475-1507)
Hernan Cortes (Spain) (1485-1547)
Fernando d'Avalos (Spain) (1489-1525)
Francisco de Almeida (Portugal) 23(Admiral) (1450-1510)
Afonso de Albuquerque (Portugal) 23(Admiral) (1453-1515)
Kemal Reis (Ottomans) (Admiral) (1451-1511)
Ismail Safavi (Safavids) 24 (1487-1524)
Zahiruddin Babur (Safavids/Mughals) 24 (1483-1530)
Selim Yavuz (Ottomans) 24 (1470-1520)
Hayreddin Barbarossa (Ottomans) 25(Admiral) (1478-1546)
Turgut Reis (Ottomans) 25 (Admiral) (1485-1565)
Suleiman the Magnificent (Ottomans) 25 (1494-1566)
Fernando Alvarez de Toledo (Spain) (1507-1582)
Francois duke of Guise (France, Catholics) (1519-1563)
Alvaro de Bazan (Spain)(Admiral) (1526-1588)
Francis Drake (England)(Admiral) (1540-1596)
Alessandro Farnese (Spain) 26 (1545-1592)
Henry IV of France (Huguenots, France) 26 (1553-1610)
Hemu Vikramaditya (Suri/Hindustan) 27 (1501-1556)
Akbar the Great (Mughals) 27 (1542-1605)
Abbas the Great (Safavids) (1571-1629)
Stanislaw Zolkiewski (Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) 30 (1547-1620)
Jan Karol Chodkiewicz (Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) 30 (1560-1621)
Maurice of Nassau (Netherlands) 31 (1567-1625)
Frederick Henry of Nassau (Netherlands) 31(1584-1647)
Ambrogio Spinola (Spain) 31 (1569-1630)
Johann Tserclaes graf von Tilly (Catholic League, Holy Roman Empire) 32 (1559-1632)
Albrecht von Wallenstein (Catholic League, Holy Roman Empire) 32 (1583-1634)
Gustav II Adolf (Sweden) 32 (1594-1632)
Johan Baner (Sweden) 32 (1596-1641)
Lennart Torstensson (Sweden) 32 (1603-1651)
Fernando de Austria (Spain) 32 (1609-1641)
Raimondo Montecuccoli (Holy Roman Empire) (1609-1680)
Oliver Cromwell (English Commonwealth) (1599-1658)
Robert Blake (English Commonwealth)(Admiral) (1598-1657)
Maarten Tromp (Netherlands)(Admiral) (1598-1653)
Michiel de Ruyter (Netherlands)(Admiral) (1607-1676)
Louis de Bourbon prince de Conde (Frondists/France) 33 (1621-1686)
Henri de la Tour d'Auvergne vicomte de Turenne (Frondists/Royalists, France) 33 (1611-1675)
Sebastien le Prestre marquis de Vauban (France) (1633-1707)
Francois Henri de Montmorency duc de Luxembourg (France) (1628-1695)
Karl X Gustav (Sweden) (1622-1660)
Niels Juel (Denmark)(Admiral) (1629-1697)
Jan III Sobieski (Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) (1629-1696)
Aurangzeb (Mughals) 34 (1618-1707)
Shivaji Bhonsle (Marathas) 34 (1627-1680)

Enlightenment Era
Baji Rao (Marathas) (1700-1740)
John Churchill duke of Marlborough (Britain) 36 (1650-1722)
Eugene de Savoie (Holy Roman Empire) 36 (1663-1736)
Claude de Villars (France) 36 (1653-1734)
Peter the Great (Russia) 37 (1672-1725)
Charles XII of Sweden (Sweden) 37 (1682-1718)
Maurice de Saxe (France) (1696-1750)
Frederick the Great (Prussia) (1712-1786)
Leopold Joseph von Daun (Holy Roman Empire, Austria) (1705-1766)
Ernst Gideon von Laudon (Holy Roman Empire, Austria) (1717-1790)
Ferdinand of Brunswick (Prussia/Hanover) (1721-1792)
Edward Hawke (Britain)(Admiral) (1705-1781)
Nader Shah (Safavids/Afshars) (1698-1747)
Ahmad Khan Abdali (Afshars/Durrani) (1722-1772)
George Washington (Britain/United States) (1731-1799)
George Rodney (Britain)(Admiral) (1718-1792)
Pierre Andre de Suffren (France) (1729-1788)
Alexander Suvorov (Russia) 38 (1730-1800)
Fyodor Ushakov (Russia) 38(Admiral) (1745-1817)
Tipu Sultan (Mysore) (1750-1799)
Dmitry Senyavin (Russia) 38(Admiral) (1763-1831)
Horatio Nelson (Britain) 39(Admiral) (1758-1805)
Arthur Wellesley (Britain) 39 (1769-1852)
Andre Massena (France) 39 (1758-1817)
Nicolas Jean de Dieu Soult (France) 39 (1769-1851)
Napoleon Bonaparte (France) 39 (1769-1821)
Louis Gabriel Suchet (France) 39 (1770-1826)
Louis Nicolas Davout (France) 39 (1770-1823)
Karl von Osterreich-Teschen (Austria) 39 (1771-1847)
Jose de San Martin (Argentina) (1778-1850)
Simon Bolivar (Venezuela, Gran Colombia) (1783-1830)
Theodoros Kolokotronis (Russia/Greece) 40 (1770-1843)
Ibrahim Pasha (Ottomans/Egypt) 40 (1789-1848)
Shaka Zulu (Zulus) (1787-1828)

Industrial Era
Omar Pasha (Ottomans) (1806-1871)
Zachary Taylor (United States) 41 (1784-1850)
Winfield Scott (United States) 41 (1786-1866)
Helmuth von Moltke (Prussia, Germany) 42 (1800-1891)
Giuseppe Garibaldi (Rio Grande do Sul/Uruguay/Italy/France) 42 (1807-1882)
Patrice de MacMahon (France) 42 (1808-1893)
Louis Faidherbe (France) 42 (1818-1889)
Amedee Courbet (France)(Admiral) (1827-1885)
Abd al-Qadir al-Jaza'iri (Algeria) (1808-1883)
Ivan Paskevich (Russia) (1782-1856)
Konstantin von Kaufman (Russia) (1818-1882)
Robert Lee (United States/Confederate States) 43 (1807-1870)
Ulysses Grant (United States) 43 (1822-1885)
William Tecumseh Sherman (United States) 43 (1820-1891)
David Farragut (United States) 43(Admiral) (1801-1870)
William Thomas Sampson (United States)(Admiral) (1840-1902)
Manuel Baquedano (Chile) (1823-1897)
Saigo Takamori (Japan) (1828-1877)
Oyama Iwao (Japan) (1842-1916)
Togo Heihachiro (Japan)(Admiral) (1848-1934)
Charles John Napier (Britain)(Admiral) (1786-1860)
James Bremer (Britain)(Admiral) (1786-1850)
Hugh Gough (Britain) (1779-1869)
Garnet Wolseley (Britain) (1833-1913)
Frederick Roberts (Britain) (1832-1914)

Post-Modern Era
Herbert Kitchener (Britain) (1850-1916)
Edmund Allenby (Britain) 45 (1861-1936)
John Jellicoe (Britain)(Admiral) (1859-1935)
Radomir Putnik (Serbia) 45 (1847-1917)
Joseph Gallieni (France) (1849-1916)
Louis Hubert Lyautey (France) (1854-1934)
Ferdinand Foch (France) 45 (1851-1929)
Philippe Petain (France) 45 (1856-1951)
August von Mackensen (Germany) 45 (1849-1945)
Erich von Falkenhayn (Germany) 45 (1861-1922)
Erich Ludendorff (Germany) 45 (1865-1937)
Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck (Germany) 45 (1870-1964)
Reinhard Scheer (Germany)(Admiral) (1863-1928)
Franz von Hipper (Germany)(Admiral) (1863-1932)
Mustafa Kemal (Ottomans/Turkey) 45 (1881-1938)
Jozef Pilsudski (Austria-Hungary/Poland) (1867-1935)
Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim (Russia/Finland) 46 (1867-1951)
Rodolfo Graziani (Italy) 46 (1882-1955)
Albert Kesselring (Germany) 46 (1885-1960)
Erwin Rommel (Germany) 46 (1891-1944)
Erich von Manstein (Germany) 46 (1887-1973)
Karl Doenitz (Germany) 46(Admiral) (1891-1980)
Walter Model (Germany) 46 (1891-1945)
Mikhail Frunze (Soviet Union) (1885-1925)
Georgy Zhukov (Soviet Union) 46 (1896-1974)
Aleksander Vasilevsky (Soviet Union) 46 (1895-1977)
Nikolai Vatutin (Soviet Union) 46 (1901-1944)
Andrew Cunningham (Britain) 46(Admiral) (1883-1963)
Bernard Montgomery (Britain) 46 (1887-1976)
Chester Nimitz (United States) 47(Admiral) (1885-1966)
William Slim (Britain) 47 (1891-1970)
Isoroku Yamamoto (Japan) 47(Admiral) (1884-1943)
Hisaichi Terauchi (Japan) 47 (1879-1946)
Tomoyuki Yamashita (Japan) 47 (1885-1946)
Jiang Jieshi (Nationalist China) 47 (1887-1975)
Peng Dehuai (Communist China) 48 (1898-1974)
Lin Biao (Communist China) 48 (1907-1971)
Vo Nguyen Giap (Vietnam) (1911-2013)
Sam Manekshaw (India) (1914-2008)

Warring States, Qin & Han
Sun Bin (Qi) (380 BC-316 BC)
Bai Qi (Qin) (320 BC-257 BC)
Wang Jian (Qin) 6 (280 BC-220 BC)
Ying Zheng "Qin Shi Huangdi" (Qin) 6 (260 BC-210 BC)
Xiang Yu (Chu) 7 (232 BC-202 BC)
Han Xin (Han) 7 (140 BC-196 BC)
Wei Qing (Han) (160 BC-106 BC)
Liu Xiu "Emperor Guangwu" (Han) (5 BC-57)
Ban Chao (Han) (32-102)

Chinese Three Kingdoms, Jin, Sixteen Kingdoms Northern and Southern Dynasties, Korean Three Kingdoms
Cao Cao (Han/Cao Wei) 12 (155-220)
Sima Yi (Cao Wei) 12 (179-251)
Zhuge Liang (Shu Han) 12 (181-234)
Sun Ce (Zhong/Sun Wu) 12 (175-200)
Sun Quan (Sun Wu) 12(Admiral) (182-252)
Wang Jun (Cao Wei/Jin) 12(Admiral) (206-286)
Huan Wen (Jin) (312-373)
Liu Yu "Emperor Wu" (Jin/Liu Song) (363-422)
Gwanggaeto (Goguryeo) (374-413)

Sui, Tang, Korean North and South States
Li Shimin "Emperor Taizong" (Tang) 16 (598-649)
Li Jing (Tang) 16 (571-649)
Li Shiji (Tang) 16 (594-669)
Su Dingfang (Tang) 16 (591-667)
Guo Ziyi (Tang) (697-781)

Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms, Song, Yuan, Ming, Qing, Korean Later Three Kingdoms, Goryeo, Joseon, Heian Japan, Kamakura Japan, Muromachi and Azuchi Momoyama Japan
Zhao Kuangyin "Emperor Taizu" (Later Zhou/Song) (927-976)
Wanyan Aguda "Emperor Taizu" (Jin Jurchens) (1068-1123)
Yue Fei (Song)(Admiral) (1103-1142)
Minamoto Yoshitsune (Minamoto/Fujiwara)(Admiral) (1159-1189)
Genghis Khan (Khereids/Mongols) "Ja'ud Khuri" 18 (1162-1227)
Mukhali (Mongols) 18 (1170-1223)
Subutai (Mongols) 18 (1175-1248)
Batu Khan (Mongols, Golden Horde) 18 (1207-1255)
Kublai Khan "Emperor Shizu" (Mongols, Yuan)(Admiral) (1215-1294)
Tran Hung Dao (Tran)(Admiral) (1228-1300)
Zhu Yuanzhang "Hongwu Emperor" (Red Turbans/Ming) 20(Admiral) (1328-1398)
Xu Da (Ming) 20 (1332-1385)
Zhu Di "Yongle Emperor" (Ming, Yan) 21 (1360-1424)
Zheng He (Ming, Yan) 21(Admiral) (1371-1435)
Qi Jiguang (Ming) (1528-1588)
Li Chengliang (Ming) (1526-1618)
Mori Motonari (Amako/Ouchi/Mori)(Admiral) (1497-1571)
Takeda Shingen (Takeda) 28 (1521-1573)
Uesugi Kenshin (Nagao, Uesugi) 28 (1530-1578)
Oda Nobunaga (Nagoya/Kiyosu, Oda) 28 (1534-1582)
Toyotomi Hideyoshi "Hokoku Daimyojin" (Oda/Toyotomi) 28 (1536-1598)
Tokugawa Ieyasu "Tosho Daigongen" (Imagawa/Oda/Toyotomi/Tokugawa) 28 (1543-1616)
Kuki Yoshitaka (Oda/Toyotomi) 28(Admiral) (1542-1600)
Shimazu Yoshihiro (Shimazu/Toyotomi) 29(Admiral) (1535-1619)
Konishi Yukinaga (Toyotomi) 29 (1555-1600)
Kwon Yul (Joseon) 29 (1537-1599)
Yi Sun Sin (Joseon) 29(Admiral) (1545-1598)
Bayinnaung (Taungoo) (1516-1581)
Naresuan (Taungoo/Ayutthaya) (1555-1605)
Nurhaci (Qing) (1559-1626)
Dorgon (Qing) (1612-1650)
Zheng Chenggong (Ming, Tungning)(Admiral) (1624-1662)
Kangxi (Qing) (1654-1722)
Alaungpaya (Konbaung) (1714-1760)
Zhao Hui (Qing) 35 (1708-1764)
Fukanggan (Qing) 35 (1753-1796)
 
Last edited:

Mangekyou

Ad Honorem
Jan 2010
7,963
UK
The list so far:

Bronze Age
Sharrukin of Akkad (Akkad) (2360 BC-2279 BC)
Hammurabi (Babylon) (1810 BC-1750 BC)
Ahmose (Egypt) (1560 BC-1514 BC)
Thutmosis III (Egypt) (1481 BC-1425 BC)
Suppiluliumas (Hittites) (1370 BC-1322 BC)
Seti Merenptah (Egypt) (1330 BC-1279 BC)
Muwatallis (Hittites) 1 (1310 BC-1270 BC)
Hattusili III (Hittites) 1 (1300 BC-1237 BC)
Ramesses III (Egypt)(Admiral) (1217 BC-1155 BC)

Iron Age
Ashurnasirpal II (Assyria) (905 BC-859 BC)
Tukultipilashur III (Assyria) (770 BC-727 BC)
Sharrukin II (Assyria) (760 BC-705 BC)
Ashurbanipal (Assyria) (685 BC-627 BC)
Nebuchadnezzar II (Babylon) (634 BC-562 BC)
Kurosh the Great (Achaemenids) (576 BC-530 BC)
Darayaus the Great (Achaemenids) (550 BC-486 BC)

Classical & Hellenistic Era
Themistokles (Athens/Achaemenids)(Athina)(Admiral) (524 BC-459 BC)
Perikles (Athens, Delian League) 2(Admiral) (495 BC-429 BC)
Phormion (Athens, Delian League) 2(Admiral) (470 BC-427 BC)
Alkibiades (Athens/Sparta) 3(Admiral) (450 BC-404 BC)
Thrasybulos (Athens, Exiles) 3(Admiral) (440 BC-388 BC)
Lysandros (Sparta) 3(Admiral) (440 BC-395 BC)
Agesilaos II (Sparta) 4 (444 BC-360 BC)
Epaminondas (Thebes)(Thebai) 4 (410 BC-362 BC)
Philippos II (Makedonia) (382 BC-336 BC)
Alexandros III the Great (Makedonia) 5 (356 BC-323 BC)
Antigonos Monophthalmos (Makedonia) 5 (382 BC-301 BC)
Seleukos Nikator (Ptolemies/Seleukids)(Ptolemaike/Seleukeia) 5 (358 BC-281 BC)
Chandragupta Maurya (Maurya) (340 BC-297 BC)
Agathokles (Syracuse)(Syrakousai) (361 BC-289 BC)
Pyrrhos of Epeiros (Epirus)(Epeiros) (319 BC-272 BC)
Kleomenes III (Sparta) (260 BC-219 BC)
Antiochos III (Seleucids) 8 (241 BC-187 BC)

Roman Republic Era
Hamilcar Barca (Carthage)(Qart Hadasht) (275 BC-228 BC)
Hannibal Barca (Carthage/Seleukeia/Bithynia) 8(Admiral) (247 BC-183 BC)
Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus (Rome) 8 (236 BC-183 BC)
Titus Quinctius Flamininus (Rome) 8 (229 BC-174 BC)
Viriathus (Lusitani) (160 BC-139 BC)
Gaius Marius (Rome, Populares) 9 (157 BC-86 BC)
Lucius Cornelius Sulla (Rome, Optimates) 9 (138 BC-78 BC)
Quintus Sertorius (Rome, Optimates) 9 (123 BC-72 BC)
Lucius Licinius Lucullus (Rome, Optimates) 9 (118 BC-56 BC)
Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus (Rome, Populares/Optimates) 9 (106 BC-48 BC)
Gaius Julius Caesar (Rome, Populares) 10 (100 BC-44 BC)
Marcus Antonius (Rome, Populares/Triumvirs/Antonians) 10 (83 BC-30 BC)
Monaeses Surena (Mesopotamia, Parthia) 10 (83 BC-20 BC)
Publius Ventidius Bassus (Rome, Populares/Triumvirs/Antonians) 10 (100 BC-27 BC)
Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa (Second Triumvirate, Roman Empire)(Admiral) (63 BC-12 BC)

Roman Empire Era
Tiberius Claudius Nero (Rome) 11 (42 BC-37)
Nero Claudius Drusus Germanicus (Rome) 11 (38 BC-9BC)
Marcus Ulpius Trajanus (Rome) (53-117)
Septimius Severus (Rome, Severans) (145-211)
Ardashir (Sassanids) (180-242)
Shapur the Great (Sassanids) (215-270)
Lucius Domitius Aurelianus (Rome) (214-275)
Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus the Great (West, Rome) (272-337)
Shapur II (Sassanids) (309-379)
Julian the Apostate (Gaul, Rome) (331-363)
Samudragupta (Gupta) (320-375)
Flavius Aetius (Western Rome) 13 (391-454)
Attila the Hun (Huns) 13 (400-453)
Genseric (Vandals)(Admiral) (389-477)
Clovis (Frankish Kingdom) (466-511)
Flavius Belisarius (Byzantines) 14 (505-565)
Narses (Byzantines) 14 (478-573)
Flavius Heraclius (Heraclians, Byzantines) (575-641)
Muhammad (Muslim Arabs) 15 (570-632)
Khalid bin Walid (Pagan Arabs/Muslim Arabs, Rashidun) 15 (585-642)
Muawiyah (Rashidun/Ummayad) 15(Admiral) (602-680)

Medieval Era
Charles Martel (Frankish Kingdom) (686-741)
Pepin the Younger (Frankish Kingdom) (714-768)
Charles the Great (Frankish Kingdom) (742-814)
Krum the Fearsome (Bulgarians) (760-814)
Abu Muslim Khorasani (Abbasids) (718-755)
Harun al-Rashid (Abbasids) (763-809)
Tahir ibn Husayn "al-A 'war" (Khurasan, Abbasids) (775-822)
Alfred the Great (Wessex) (849-899)
Simeon the Great (Bulgarians) (864-927)
Otto the Great (Saxony, East Frankia) (912-973)
Brian Boru (Munster, Ireland) (941-1014)
Basil the Bulgar Slayer (Byzantines) (958-1025)
Mahmud of Ghazni (Ghaznavids) (971-1030)
Tughril (Seljuks) (990-1063)
Canute the Great (England, Denmark, Norway)(Admiral) (995-1035)
Robert Guiscard (Apulia, Calabria, Sicily) (1015-1085)
William the Conqueror (Normandy, England) (1028-1087)
Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar (Castile, Valencia/Zaragoza) (1043-1099)
Frederick Barbarossa (Burgundy, Holy Roman Empire) 17 (1122-1190)
Nur ad-Din Zangi (Zengids) 17 (1118-1174)
Saladin (Zengids/Ayyubids) 17 (1138-1193)
Richard the Lion Heart (England) 17 (1157-1199)
Baibars (Ayyubids, Mamluks) (1223-1277)
Ruggiero di Lauria (Aragon)(Admiral) (1245-1305)
Edward Longshanks (England) (1239-1307)
Robert the Bruce (Carrick, Scotland) (1274-1329)
Vettor Pisani (Venice)(Admiral) (1324-1380)
Edward III (England) 19(Admiral) (1312-1377)
Edward the Black Prince (England) 19 (1330-1376)
Bertrand du Guesclin (France) 19 (1320-1380)
Nuno Alvares Pereira (Portugal) (1360-1431)
Timur (Chagatai/Timurids) (1330-1405)
Jan Zizka (Hussites, Taborites) (1360-1424)
Francesco Bussone da Carmagnola (Milan/Venice) (1382-1432)
Henry V (England) (1386-1422)
Joan of Arc (France) (1412-1431)
Edward IV (England, House of York) (1442-1483)
George Kastrioti (Kastrioti) 22 (1405-1468)
Janos Hunyadi (Jagiellon/Habsburg, Hungary) 22 (1406-1456)
Stefan III Cel Mare (Moldovia) 22 (1433-1504)
Murad II (Ottomans) 22 (1404-1451)
Mehmed II (Ottomans) 22 (1432-1481)

Renaissance Period
Gonzalo Fernandez de Cordoba (Spain) (1453-1515)
Cesare Borgia (Papal States/Navarre) (1475-1507)
Hernan Cortes (Spain) (1485-1547)
Fernando d'Avalos (Spain) (1489-1525)
Francisco de Almeida (Portugal) 23(Admiral) (1450-1510)
Afonso de Albuquerque (Portugal) 23(Admiral) (1453-1515)
Kemal Reis (Ottomans) (Admiral) (1451-1511)
Ismail Safavi (Safavids) 24 (1487-1524)
Zahiruddin Babur (Safavids/Mughals) 24 (1483-1530)
Selim Yavuz (Ottomans) 24 (1470-1520)
Hayreddin Barbarossa (Ottomans) 25(Admiral) (1478-1546)
Turgut Reis (Ottomans) 25 (Admiral) (1485-1565)
Suleiman the Magnificent (Ottomans) 25 (1494-1566)
Fernando Alvarez de Toledo (Spain) (1507-1582)
Francois duke of Guise (France, Catholics) (1519-1563)
Alvaro de Bazan (Spain)(Admiral) (1526-1588)
Francis Drake (England)(Admiral) (1540-1596)
Alessandro Farnese (Spain) 26 (1545-1592)
Henry IV of France (Huguenots, France) 26 (1553-1610)
Hemu Vikramaditya (Suri/Hindustan) 27 (1501-1556)
Akbar the Great (Mughals) 27 (1542-1605)
Abbas the Great (Safavids) (1571-1629)
Stanislaw Zolkiewski (Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) 30 (1547-1620)
Jan Karol Chodkiewicz (Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) 30 (1560-1621)
Maurice of Nassau (Netherlands) 31 (1567-1625)
Frederick Henry of Nassau (Netherlands) 31(1584-1647)
Ambrogio Spinola (Spain) 31 (1569-1630)
Johann Tserclaes graf von Tilly (Catholic League, Holy Roman Empire) 32 (1559-1632)
Albrecht von Wallenstein (Catholic League, Holy Roman Empire) 32 (1583-1634)
Gustav II Adolf (Sweden) 32 (1594-1632)
Johan Baner (Sweden) 32 (1596-1641)
Lennart Torstensson (Sweden) 32 (1603-1651)
Fernando de Austria (Spain) 32 (1609-1641)
Raimondo Montecuccoli (Holy Roman Empire) (1609-1680)
Oliver Cromwell (English Commonwealth) (1599-1658)
Robert Blake (English Commonwealth)(Admiral) (1598-1657)
Maarten Tromp (Netherlands)(Admiral) (1598-1653)
Michiel de Ruyter (Netherlands)(Admiral) (1607-1676)
Louis de Bourbon prince de Conde (Frondists/France) 33 (1621-1686)
Henri de la Tour d'Auvergne vicomte de Turenne (Frondists/Royalists, France) 33 (1611-1675)
Sebastien le Prestre marquis de Vauban (France) (1633-1707)
Francois Henri de Montmorency duc de Luxembourg (France) (1628-1695)
Karl X Gustav (Sweden) (1622-1660)
Niels Juel (Denmark)(Admiral) (1629-1697)
Jan III Sobieski (Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) (1629-1696)
Aurangzeb (Mughals) 34 (1618-1707)
Shivaji Bhonsle (Marathas) 34 (1627-1680)

Enlightenment Era
Baji Rao (Marathas) (1700-1740)
John Churchill duke of Marlborough (Britain) 36 (1650-1722)
Eugene de Savoie (Holy Roman Empire) 36 (1663-1736)
Claude de Villars (France) 36 (1653-1734)
Peter the Great (Russia) 37 (1672-1725)
Charles XII of Sweden (Sweden) 37 (1682-1718)
Maurice de Saxe (France) (1696-1750)
Frederick the Great (Prussia) (1712-1786)
Leopold Joseph von Daun (Holy Roman Empire, Austria) (1705-1766)
Ernst Gideon von Laudon (Holy Roman Empire, Austria) (1717-1790)
Ferdinand of Brunswick (Prussia/Hanover) (1721-1792)
Edward Hawke (Britain)(Admiral) (1705-1781)
Nader Shah (Safavids/Afshars) (1698-1747)
Ahmad Khan Abdali (Afshars/Durrani) (1722-1772)
George Washington (Britain/United States) (1731-1799)
George Rodney (Britain)(Admiral) (1718-1792)
Pierre Andre de Suffren (France) (1729-1788)
Alexander Suvorov (Russia) 38 (1730-1800)
Fyodor Ushakov (Russia) 38(Admiral) (1745-1817)
Tipu Sultan (Mysore) (1750-1799)
Dmitry Senyavin (Russia) 38(Admiral) (1763-1831)
Horatio Nelson (Britain) 39(Admiral) (1758-1805)
Arthur Wellesley (Britain) 39 (1769-1852)
Andre Massena (France) 39 (1758-1817)
Nicolas Jean de Dieu Soult (France) 39 (1769-1851)
Napoleon Bonaparte (France) 39 (1769-1821)
Louis Gabriel Suchet (France) 39 (1770-1826)
Louis Nicolas Davout (France) 39 (1770-1823)
Karl von Osterreich-Teschen (Austria) 39 (1771-1847)
Jose de San Martin (Argentina) (1778-1850)
Simon Bolivar (Venezuela, Gran Colombia) (1783-1830)
Theodoros Kolokotronis (Russia/Greece) 40 (1770-1843)
Ibrahim Pasha (Ottomans/Egypt) 40 (1789-1848)
Shaka Zulu (Zulus) (1787-1828)

Industrial Era
Omar Pasha (Ottomans) (1806-1871)
Zachary Taylor (United States) 41 (1784-1850)
Winfield Scott (United States) 41 (1786-1866)
Helmuth von Moltke (Prussia, Germany) 42 (1800-1891)
Giuseppe Garibaldi (Rio Grande do Sul/Uruguay/Italy/France) 42 (1807-1882)
Patrice de MacMahon (France) 42 (1808-1893)
Louis Faidherbe (France) 42 (1818-1889)
Amedee Courbet (France)(Admiral) (1827-1885)
Abd al-Qadir al-Jaza'iri (Algeria) (1808-1883)
Ivan Paskevich (Russia) (1782-1856)
Konstantin von Kaufman (Russia) (1818-1882)
Robert Lee (United States/Confederate States) 43 (1807-1870)
Ulysses Grant (United States) 43 (1822-1885)
William Tecumseh Sherman (United States) 43 (1820-1891)
David Farragut (United States) 43(Admiral) (1801-1870)
William Thomas Sampson (United States)(Admiral) (1840-1902)
Manuel Baquedano (Chile) (1823-1897)
Saigo Takamori (Japan) (1828-1877)
Oyama Iwao (Japan) (1842-1916)
Togo Heihachiro (Japan)(Admiral) (1848-1934)
Charles John Napier (Britain)(Admiral) (1786-1860)
James Bremer (Britain)(Admiral) (1786-1850)
Hugh Gough (Britain) (1779-1869)
Garnet Wolseley (Britain) (1833-1913)
Frederick Roberts (Britain) (1832-1914)

Post-Modern Era
Herbert Kitchener (Britain) (1850-1916)
Edmund Allenby (Britain) 45 (1861-1936)
John Jellicoe (Britain)(Admiral) (1859-1935)
Radomir Putnik (Serbia) 45 (1847-1917)
Joseph Gallieni (France) (1849-1916)
Louis Hubert Lyautey (France) (1854-1934)
Ferdinand Foch (France) 45 (1851-1929)
Philippe Petain (France) 45 (1856-1951)
August von Mackensen (Germany) 45 (1849-1945)
Erich von Falkenhayn (Germany) 45 (1861-1922)
Erich Ludendorff (Germany) 45 (1865-1937)
Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck (Germany) 45 (1870-1964)
Reinhard Scheer (Germany)(Admiral) (1863-1928)
Franz von Hipper (Germany)(Admiral) (1863-1932)
Mustafa Kemal (Ottomans/Turkey) 45 (1881-1938)
Jozef Pilsudski (Austria-Hungary/Poland) (1867-1935)
Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim (Russia/Finland) 46 (1867-1951)
Rodolfo Graziani (Italy) 46 (1882-1955)
Albert Kesselring (Germany) 46 (1885-1960)
Erwin Rommel (Germany) 46 (1891-1944)
Erich von Manstein (Germany) 46 (1887-1973)
Karl Doenitz (Germany) 46(Admiral) (1891-1980)
Walter Model (Germany) 46 (1891-1945)
Mikhail Frunze (Soviet Union) (1885-1925)
Georgy Zhukov (Soviet Union) 46 (1896-1974)
Aleksander Vasilevsky (Soviet Union) 46 (1895-1977)
Nikolai Vatutin (Soviet Union) 46 (1901-1944)
Andrew Cunningham (Britain) 46(Admiral) (1883-1963)
Bernard Montgomery (Britain) 46 (1887-1976)
Chester Nimitz (United States) 47(Admiral) (1885-1966)
William Slim (Britain) 47 (1891-1970)
Isoroku Yamamoto (Japan) 47(Admiral) (1884-1943)
Hisaichi Terauchi (Japan) 47 (1879-1946)
Tomoyuki Yamashita (Japan) 47 (1885-1946)
Jiang Jieshi (Nationalist China) 47 (1887-1975)
Peng Dehuai (Communist China) 48 (1898-1974)
Lin Biao (Communist China) 48 (1907-1971)
Vo Nguyen Giap (Vietnam) (1911-2013)
Sam Manekshaw (India) (1914-2008)

Warring States, Qin & Han
Sun Bin (Qi) (380 BC-316 BC)
Bai Qi (Qin) (320 BC-257 BC)
Wang Jian (Qin) 6 (280 BC-220 BC)
Ying Zheng "Qin Shi Huangdi" (Qin) 6 (260 BC-210 BC)
Xiang Yu (Chu) 7 (232 BC-202 BC)
Han Xin (Han) 7 (140 BC-196 BC)
Wei Qing (Han) (160 BC-106 BC)
Liu Xiu "Emperor Guangwu" (Han) (5 BC-57)
Ban Chao (Han) (32-102)

Chinese Three Kingdoms, Jin, Sixteen Kingdoms Northern and Southern Dynasties, Korean Three Kingdoms
Cao Cao (Han/Cao Wei) 12 (155-220)
Sima Yi (Cao Wei) 12 (179-251)
Zhuge Liang (Shu Han) 12 (181-234)
Sun Ce (Zhong/Sun Wu) 12 (175-200)
Sun Quan (Sun Wu) 12(Admiral) (182-252)
Wang Jun (Cao Wei/Jin) 12(Admiral) (206-286)
Huan Wen (Jin) (312-373)
Liu Yu "Emperor Wu" (Jin/Liu Song) (363-422)
Gwanggaeto (Goguryeo) (374-413)

Sui, Tang, Korean North and South States
Li Shimin "Emperor Taizong" (Tang) 16 (598-649)
Li Jing (Tang) 16 (571-649)
Li Shiji (Tang) 16 (594-669)
Su Dingfang (Tang) 16 (591-667)
Guo Ziyi (Tang) (697-781)

Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms, Song, Yuan, Ming, Qing, Korean Later Three Kingdoms, Goryeo, Joseon, Heian Japan, Kamakura Japan, Muromachi and Azuchi Momoyama Japan
Zhao Kuangyin "Emperor Taizu" (Later Zhou/Song) (927-976)
Wanyan Aguda "Emperor Taizu" (Jin Jurchens) (1068-1123)
Yue Fei (Song)(Admiral) (1103-1142)
Minamoto Yoshitsune (Minamoto/Fujiwara)(Admiral) (1159-1189)
Genghis Khan (Khereids/Mongols) "Ja'ud Khuri" 18 (1162-1227)
Mukhali (Mongols) 18 (1170-1223)
Subutai (Mongols) 18 (1175-1248)
Batu Khan (Mongols, Golden Horde) 18 (1207-1255)
Kublai Khan "Emperor Shizu" (Mongols, Yuan)(Admiral) (1215-1294)
Tran Hung Dao (Tran)(Admiral) (1228-1300)
Zhu Yuanzhang "Hongwu Emperor" (Red Turbans/Ming) 20(Admiral) (1328-1398)
Xu Da (Ming) 20 (1332-1385)
Zhu Di "Yongle Emperor" (Ming, Yan) 21 (1360-1424)
Zheng He (Ming, Yan) 21(Admiral) (1371-1435)
Qi Jiguang (Ming) (1528-1588)
Li Chengliang (Ming) (1526-1618)
Mori Motonari (Amako/Ouchi/Mori)(Admiral) (1497-1571)
Takeda Shingen (Takeda) 28 (1521-1573)
Uesugi Kenshin (Nagao, Uesugi) 28 (1530-1578)
Oda Nobunaga (Nagoya/Kiyosu, Oda) 28 (1534-1582)
Toyotomi Hideyoshi "Hokoku Daimyojin" (Oda/Toyotomi) 28 (1536-1598)
Tokugawa Ieyasu "Tosho Daigongen" (Imagawa/Oda/Toyotomi/Tokugawa) 28 (1543-1616)
Kuki Yoshitaka (Oda/Toyotomi) 28(Admiral) (1542-1600)
Shimazu Yoshihiro (Shimazu/Toyotomi) 29(Admiral) (1535-1619)
Konishi Yukinaga (Toyotomi) 29 (1555-1600)
Kwon Yul (Joseon) 29 (1537-1599)
Yi Sun Sin (Joseon) 29(Admiral) (1545-1598)
Bayinnaung (Taungoo) (1516-1581)
Naresuan (Taungoo/Ayutthaya) (1555-1605)
Nurhaci (Qing) (1559-1626)
Dorgon (Qing) (1612-1650)
Zheng Chenggong (Ming, Tungning)(Admiral) (1624-1662)
Kangxi (Qing) (1654-1722)
Alaungpaya (Konbaung) (1714-1760)
Zhao Hui (Qing) 35 (1708-1764)
Fukanggan (Qing) 35 (1753-1796)
How did you define your personal list?

Didn't Tiglath-Pileser III start his reign in 745 not 770 or are going from birth year?

In terms of Naval commanders during the Napoleonic wars, it's really a who's who of great commanders for the British so it's hard to choose imo. You may already know them but try researching Thomas Cochrane and William Hoste (I have a blog for him) who had some of the most brilliant exploits during the war.
 

Lord Oda Nobunaga

Ad Honorem
Jan 2015
5,648
Ontario, Canada
How did you define your personal list?

Didn't Tiglath-Pileser III start his reign in 745 not 770 or are going from birth year?

In terms of Naval commanders during the Napoleonic wars, it's really a who's who of great commanders for the British so it's hard to choose imo. You may already know them but try researching Thomas Cochrane and William Hoste (I have a blog for him) who had some of the most brilliant exploits during the war.
Generals who commanded their own campaigns. And I weeded out the commanders who are only known for winning once.

I listed them off roughly from when they were born. By the time Tiglath Pileser took the throne he would have been about 30. Though it is really hard since Assyrian inscriptions and the Assyrian kings list contradict. It is unknown whether his father was Adad-nirari III (grandfather?) or Ashur-nirari V (brother?)... or if he was an unrelated usurper (if I had to guess he was actually a relative of the royal family although some archaeologists have said he was a foreigner... this is highly unlikely).

I have been researching Thomas Cochrane. Have only vaguely heard of William Hoste. Also been looking into James Saumarez in the Baltic.
 
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mariusj

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,019
Los Angeles
I don't like your Chinese list. It doesn't make a lot of sense for a lot of them.
I especially don't like Sun Bin, QSHD, Zhuge Liang, Sun Quan.

For QSHD, I don't recall him fighting any battles, even in the rebellion during his early reign, his cousin took care of it. QSHD is a great leader, but there are so many commanders of the late Warring State I just wouldn't pick him. For a leader and a commander, I would put Lord Zhao Xiangzi.

For Ban Chao, I felt he is also an OK commander, but Han dynasty had some many brilliant commanders I would pick Zhou Yafu over him, or Ma Yuan. But Ban Chao is better than most of the other people I had on the unworthy list.

The Three Kingdom is literred with great commanders. If you were to pick a Wu faction commander, you can go through a bunch before you pick Sun Quan. You have Zhou Yu, Lu Meng, Lv Xun, Lv Kang, Sun Ce, Sun Jian, Cheng Pu, are without a doubt much better than Sun Quan. Then we can hit the more or less good commanders who I would still pick over Sun Quan. And normally people would put the top commanders of that era, if Sun Quan can't even be a top commander of his own faction, why does he get to be on the list? I would put down Guan Yu (yes I know people **** on him, but his failure was not the failure of military but of diplomacy) as someone way way way way way way way way way better than Sun Quan. There shouldn't be any list which Sun Quan is on but Guan Yu wasn't in terms of military.

I would swap Sun Quan with Zhou Yu for faction or Lu Xun (but Zhou Yu > Lu Xun), or with Guan Yu just for sheer ability. I would replace Sun Ce. I mean, great impact, but too short of a reign and too short of a command.

王浚 and 王濬 has nothing compare to the top general of the Three Kingdom/Jin period. Neither of them matches up to either Zhou Yu or Lu Xun or Cao Cao or Guan Yu. Realistically, if you were to pick a commander, and your choices were these 6, you would not select Wang Jun before your 5th pick.

I would replace Huan Wen with Xie Xuan personally.
 

nuclearguy165

Ad Honorem
Nov 2011
4,843
Ohio, USA
Excellent, Lord Oda. I'm looking forward to seeing how your refined list changes in the near future.

As for those Coalition commanders, I'm very skeptical of Wittgenstein and Bennigsen being worthy of inclusion here. Wittgenstein was successful in much of 1812 (except for bungling at the Berezina), essentially managing to contain Oudinot, St. Cyr, and MacDonald, and even seizing the important Minsk depot, but he was only commanding a single corps and essentially just following directives from Barclay. Also, by practically all accounts, he did a pretty poor job as coalition general-in-chief in 1813. Other than that, he was really only a corps commander in the same vein as, say, Lannes, Marmont, or St. Cyr.

Bennigsen was a pretty good tactician on a number of occasions, but not very successful in other regards as an independent, commanding general, especially in 1807. One of his defining, decisive moments in 1807 was his fatal underestimation of the marching speed and prompt aggressiveness of Napoleon immediately prior to Friedland. This caused him to put his army in a disastrous position at the point when Lannes' force showed up as somewhat unintentional bait, upon which Napoleon recognized the opportunity and decisively defeated Bennigsen's forces on his side of the Alle river. This was decisive in not only in ending the campaign largely on Napoleon's terms but also defining Bennigsen's generalship reputation. He was more successful in 1812-13, but was essentially not in any major independent command except as the commander of the Army of Poland prior to Leipzig. He performed competently in that role but it didn't really stand-out in any meaningful sense.

Barclay and Blucher are more deserving of this list, especially Barclay. He was responsible for the overall successful Russian retreat strategy in 1812, and thus his performance and accomplishment in this was more than appreciable. His issue is that he simply doesn't have much in terms of independent command aside from this. Blucher is somewhat more difficult, and perhaps not primarily just for his mixed record (though here I would argue that it was a bit more good than not so). The issue is that it isn't entirely clear how independent many of his operations were, since he was operating as only one among a number of other allied commanders in basically the same theater, and many of these allies had larger armies than he did. On the other hand, his operations were more or less the driving force in the coalition successes in 1813 and 1815, especially since Bernadotte and Schwarzenberg, in command of larger armies, were unlikely to do much without prodding from both Blucher and the Tsar. He also did better operationally than Wellibgton did in 1815. Even 1814, which was by far his worst performance, could have gone even worse in some ways, and he did pull off some successful operations to link up with Bulow's force in March 1814. However, I would argue that the Tsar's decisions were a much more decisive driving force in 1814 than whatever Blucher did. So, whatever his foibles and reverses might have been, and in the lack of clear independent operations some of the time, his contributions were decisive where they mattered, especially in 1813 and 1815, and thus he should be considered for that. Understandable if he doesn't make it though. In researching and understanding him, I would recommend Michael Leggiere's Blucher.
 
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Lord Oda Nobunaga

Ad Honorem
Jan 2015
5,648
Ontario, Canada
Excellent, Lord Oda. I'm looking forward to seeing how your refined list changes in the near future.
Well I have been looking into Adolf Hitler. :lol:

Looking at more credible sources like German archives and other sources, he seems to be fairly competent. Two-bit historians like Ian Kershaw and Anthony Beevor are saying things that aren't even true. I actually tracked down some of the sources which a lot of these books cite... did the authors even read the sources they are citing??? Hitler was by no means a bad strategists. In fact it looks that way when one only focuses on operations... but given strategic context the majority of his decisions actually make sense.

-He did have input into the 1939 plans and pushed strongly for the main thrust in Silesia rather than Pomerania. He was also present for and directed the Siege of Warsaw.
-His decision to invade Denmark and Norway was a gamble which completely paid off and he preempted an Allied landing by a couple of hours. While he was extremely apprehensive and nervous it was the correct call.
-The plans to invade France were influenced by Hitler. Hitler also took part in the operational planning together with Jodl and several OKH staff officers. Manstein eternally btfo and I will stress 15 billion times that Manstein's plan was not implemented by the OKH in 1940.

-Dunkirk makes sense. Although the halt was actually ordered by Rundstedt, and this is stated outright in Charles Messenger's biography... this is a good decision because the Germans needed to reorganize, recover and refit their panzer units. The passage to Dunkirk, Calais and Boulogne was a narrow and extremely dangerous path which would have incurred losses and there is no reason to believe that an attack would have stopped the evacuation.

-Hitler being apprehensive about Operation Typhoon is 100% justified. I could go into every reason for why Moscow was a terrible idea but it would take too long, instead a snippet of what the Soviets thought. The fact is that Stalin and STAVKA officers stated that Operation Typhoon came as a relief because losing Moscow would not severely damage the Soviet war effort, as opposed to a southern thrust to the Volga.

-He intervened decisively on the Eastern Front (Operation Barbarossa): ordering Bock to divert forces so that Rundstedt could close off the Kiev encirclement... David Stahel in his Kiev 1941 book actually states that the fall of Kiev was due to Hitler's direct contributions.

-He reestablished the front after Operation Typhoon failed. Bock and Guderian wanted a total withdrawal. Hitler with a clear understanding of stellungskrieg went over them and reestablished the front along a defensive position... Guderian was fired for his clear ineptitude. Guderian eternally btfo.

-He rejected the suggestions that Leningrad should be completely invested and assaulted and that German focus should be diverted to the south. The reason being that if Leningrad was already cut off and the Soviets were still able to send relief, the Wehrmacht could not simultaneously surround Leningrad, assault the city and fend off Soviet relief attempts. Leningrad was already effectively neutralized.

-He intervened in late 1941 and early 1942 to fend off Soviet attacks. The first time was during Bock's battered Army Group at 2nd Kharkov the second time was in aiding Manstein by diverting forces to fend off the Soviet attack at Kerch and to reduce Sevastopol.

-He personally took part in planning the offensive operations on the Don in 1942, this destroyed a Soviet Army Group and severely battered another Soviet Army Group. This operation was preceded by a maskirovka to make the Soviets think that the main target was Moscow. So while the Soviets first tried to defend Moscow, then carried out a massive offensive at Rzhev (Operation Mars), the Wehrmacht pushed to the Volga and the Soviets were forced to take more time in organizing Operation Saturn in the south.

-Case Blue actually makes sense!!! Hitler knew he would lose the war (as did Keitel) so he gambled on a massive attack towards the Volga to cut off the Baku oilfields AS WELL AS the main supply line all along the Soviet front. According to both STAVKA and the Stalin's government this would have led to the collapse of the Soviet war economy and domestic economy. The reason for this is because the Soviet's acquired over 70% of their oil from the Caucasus and lend lease could not keep them afloat. What is more this cut off the Persian Corridor so it would lead to a massive loss in Lend Lease material... remember that Siberian oil was not a major source until after the war.

-Stalingrad was from necessity. We can debate how best to deal with Stalingrad but either way it had to be dealt with. German documents clearly indicate that the decision to split off and send Army Group B (6th Army) to the Volga was because the Soviets were organizing a massive concentration of forces behind the Volga. If they did not attempt to stop their counterattack then Army Group A would be outflanked and destroyed. Stalingrad was also a major industrial area, a key port in sending material up the Volga and a position from which the Soviets could cross the Volga and especially to send across heavy equipment. Unlike what Anthony Beevor, Ian Kershaw, WL Shirer claim I actually tracked down a source which is cited. As it states clearly the decision to not withdraw 6th Army and to try airlifting supplies was based on the suggestions of a Luftwaffe officer (Goering is not to blame). The advice of Erich von Manstein that Army Group B could relieve 6th Army was also considered. Ultimately it was not any particular decision that led to a military defeat but rather logistical difficulties which both Army Group A and B suffered.

-Kursk makes sense given the attrition context, it was not an attempt to fight a pitched battle as some have suggested. The point being to cut off 500,000 Soviets and to straighten out the line for defensive purposes. A backhand approach (maneuver war) was not feasible due to a lack of fuel and tanks which could be replaced. According to multiple staff officers Operation Citadel was feasible. The reason it was postponed was due to the weather, which would prevent the Germans from deploying air superiority. Ultimately the defeat occurred because the Soviets had in depth knowledge of German plans.

-Heinrich Himmler being command of Army Group Vistula in 1944. After the disaster during Operation Bagration the Wehrmacht needed to raised a new Army Group. Himmler was capable of raising and organizing such a force. More importantly he was willing to follow orders and this allowed Hitler to take more control over the Wehrmacht (which ironically coincided with the bomb plot). This was during the Hitler control freak phase.

-Berlin. Not much to talk about but the defense of Berlin was carried out fairly well all things considered. Using Steiner's Divisions the Germans pushed back a Soviet attack into the city. Later on Hitler ordered another attack but Steiner refused for logistical reasons, this provides the context for that hilarious scene in Downfall that everyone memes on the internet "Mein Fuhrer, Steiner... Steiner konnte nicht genügend Kräfte für einen Angriff massieren".

-Basically every rebuttal to German plans is wrong. Take Moscow sooner? Unfeasible. No Barbarossa? Ill advised... Germans would have lost the war either way and Stalin's army reorganization bought the Germans five years as well as a prime opportunity to attack. Focus on the Mediterranean? Literally impossible and the Germans would not gain anything from taking Egypt, Syria and Iraq... no not even oil.

I could keep going but after this point the war is basically unwinnable.
As an aside everything WL Shirer says is wrong, this guy is an idiot. There are already a handful of books that have popped out in the last decade that contradict Shirer and these older historians significantly. Forczyk, Battistelli, Glantz, Stahel, Harrison etc. Reading especially Glantz and Harrison one can see that the Red Army being a weak military force is totally erroneous. Not only that but the Soviet commanders which survived 1930-1942 and took part in beating the Germans militarily in 1943 and 1944 were actually very capable.

Where this puts Hitler militarily is hard to discern. Given his early successes and his multiple correct reprimands of his generals, I am inclined to think that he is actually a more capable strategist than any of his commanders. He also had a definite grasp of operations, politics, industrial production, armaments and tactics. Also looking over these documents his grasp of politics is insanely good. Shirer either misquotes or omits crucial details in many of the documents he cites. It seems to be the case that he was actually mentored by both Ludendorff and Hans von Seeckt... he corresponded with Hans von Seeckt ever since his incarceration in 1928 (ironic since Seeckt put down his revolt :p). That and he was an insane bookworm, he certainly read the military treatises produced by the Reichswehr as they were being published.
 
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nuclearguy165

Ad Honorem
Nov 2011
4,843
Ohio, USA
Well I have been looking into Adolf Hitler. :lol:

Looking at more credible sources like German archives and other sources, he seems to be fairly competent. Two-bit historians like Ian Kershaw and Anthony Beevor are saying things that aren't even true. I actually tracked down some of the sources which a lot of these books cite... did the authors even read the sources they are citing??? Hitler was by no means a bad strategists. In fact it looks that way when one only focuses on operations... but given strategic context the majority of his decisions actually make sense.

-He did have input into the 1939 plans and pushed strongly for the main thrust in Silesia rather than Pomerania. He was also present for and directed the Siege of Warsaw.
-His decision to invade Denmark and Norway was a gamble which completely paid off and he preempted an Allied landing by a couple of hours. While he was extremely apprehensive and nervous it was the correct call.
-The plans to invade France were influenced by Hitler. Hitler also took part in the operational planning together with Jodl and several OKH staff officers. Manstein eternally btfo and I will stress 15 billion times that Manstein's plan was not implemented by the OKH in 1940.

-Dunkirk makes sense. Although the halt was actually ordered by Rundstedt, and this is stated outright in Charles Messenger's biography... this is a good decision because the Germans needed to reorganize, recover and refit their panzer units. The passage to Dunkirk, Calais and Boulogne was a narrow and extremely dangerous path which would have incurred losses and there is no reason to believe that an attack would have stopped the evacuation.

-Hitler being apprehensive about Operation Typhoon is 100% justified. I could go into every reason for why Moscow was a terrible idea but it would take too long, instead a snippet of what the Soviets thought. The fact is that Stalin and STAVKA officers stated that Operation Typhoon came as a relief because losing Moscow would not severely damage the Soviet war effort, as opposed to a southern thrust to the Volga.

-He intervened decisively on the Eastern Front (Operation Barbarossa): ordering Bock to divert forces so that Rundstedt could close off the Kiev encirclement... David Stahel in his Kiev 1941 book actually states that the fall of Kiev was due to Hitler's direct contributions.

-He reestablished the front after Operation Typhoon failed. Bock and Guderian wanted a total withdrawal. Hitler with a clear understanding of stellungskrieg went over them and reestablished the front along a defensive position... Guderian was fired for his clear ineptitude. Guderian eternally btfo.

-He rejected the suggestions that Leningrad should be completely invested and assaulted and that German focus should be diverted to the south. The reason being that if Leningrad was already cut off and the Soviets were still able to send relief, the Wehrmacht could not simultaneously surround Leningrad, assault the city and fend off Soviet relief attempts. Leningrad was already effectively neutralized.

-He intervened in late 1941 and early 1942 to fend off Soviet attacks. The first time was during Bock's battered Army Group at 2nd Kharkov the second time was in aiding Manstein by diverting forces to fend off the Soviet attack at Kerch and to reduce Sevastopol.

-He personally took part in planning the offensive operations on the Don in 1942, this destroyed a Soviet Army Group and severely battered another Soviet Army Group. This operation was preceded by a maskirovka to make the Soviets think that the main target was Moscow. So while the Soviets first tried to defend Moscow, then carried out a massive offensive at Rzhev (Operation Mars), the Wehrmacht pushed to the Volga and the Soviets were forced to take more time in organizing Operation Saturn in the south.

-Case Blue actually makes sense!!! Hitler knew he would lose the war (as did Keitel) so he gambled on a massive attack towards the Volga to cut off the Baku oilfields AS WELL AS the main supply line all along the Soviet front. According to both STAVKA and the Stalin's government this would have led to the collapse of the Soviet war economy and domestic economy. The reason for this is because the Soviet's acquired over 70% of their oil from the Caucasus and lend lease could not keep them afloat. What is more this cut off the Persian Corridor so it would lead to a massive loss in Lend Lease material... remember that Siberian oil was not a major source until after the war.

-Stalingrad was from necessity. We can debate how best to deal with Stalingrad but either way it had to be dealt with. German documents clearly indicate that the decision to split off and send Army Group B (6th Army) to the Volga was because the Soviets were organizing a massive concentration of forces behind the Volga. If they did not attempt to stop their counterattack then Army Group A would be outflanked and destroyed. Stalingrad was also a major industrial area, a key port in sending material up the Volga and a position from which the Soviets could cross the Volga and especially to send across heavy equipment. Unlike what Anthony Beevor, Ian Kershaw, WL Shirer claim I actually tracked down a source which is cited. As it states clearly the decision to not withdraw 6th Army and to try airlifting supplies was based on the suggestions of a Luftwaffe officer (Goering is not to blame). The advice of Erich von Manstein that Army Group B could relieve 6th Army was also considered. Ultimately it was not any particular decision that led to a military defeat but rather logistical difficulties which both Army Group A and B suffered.

-Kursk makes sense given the attrition context, it was not an attempt to fight a pitched battle as some have suggested. The point being to cut off 500,000 Soviets and to straighten out the line for defensive purposes. A backhand approach (maneuver war) was not feasible due to a lack of fuel and tanks which could be replaced. According to multiple staff officers Operation Citadel was feasible. The reason it was postponed was due to the weather, which would prevent the Germans from deploying air superiority. Ultimately the defeat occurred because the Soviets had in depth knowledge of German plans.

-Basically every rebuttal to German plans is wrong. Take Moscow sooner? Unfeasible. No Barbarossa? Ill advised... Germans would have lost the war either way and Stalin's army reorganization bought the Germans five years as well as a prime opportunity to attack. Focus on the Mediterranean? Literally impossible and the Germans would not gain anything from taking Egypt, Syria and Iraq... no not even oil.

I could keep going but after this point the war is basically unwinnable.
As an aside everything WL Shirer says is wrong, this guy is an idiot. There are already a handful of books that have popped out in the last decade that contradict Shirer and these older historians significantly. Forczyk, Battistelli, Glantz, Stahel, Harrison etc. Reading especially Glantz and Harrison one can see that the Red Army being a weak military force is totally erroneous. Not only that but the Soviet commanders which survived 1930-1942 and took part in beating the Germans militarily in 1943 and 1944 were actually very capable.

Where this puts Hitler militarily is hard to discern. Given his early successes and his multiple correct reprimands of his generals, I am inclined to think that he is actually a more capable strategist than any of his commanders. He also had a definite grasp of operations, politics, industrial production, armaments and tactics. Also looking over these documents his grasp of politics is insanely good. Shirer either misquotes or omits crucial details in many of the documents he cites. It seems to be the case that he was actually mentored by both Ludendorff and Hans von Seeckt... he corresponded with Hans von Seeckt ever since his incarceration in 1928 (ironic since Seeckt put down his revolt :p). That and he was an insane bookworm, he certainly read the military treatises produced by the Reichswehr as they were being published.

Heh, I still have yet to get around to WW2 and this will probably be the case for some time since I've been distracted so much by Star Wars Legends. When the time comes though, I will take the authors you recommend and those you recommend I avoid under advisement.

When one looks at newer sources, you get the impression that there are far more very capable Russian commanders in general than history likes to admit. I've caught on to the underrated nature of Russian and Soviet generals just as I have caught on to the overrated nature of certain German ones. It probably started after having read some of member Underlankers' posts, as well as some of Sam-Nary. In spite of potential (and to a certain extent, likely) nationalist bias, watching documentaries from StarMedia has helped as well, even if English only comes in the subtitles.
 
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Lord Oda Nobunaga

Ad Honorem
Jan 2015
5,648
Ontario, Canada
I don't know but blaming the leadership for losing wars seems to be the trend in anything Industrial Era. For example Tsar Nicholas, for all his faults, actually provided a crucial direction to the war when he took over the army in 1915. The fact is that his intervention directly led to the Brusilov Offensive. Tsar Alexander was in a precarious position militarily and politically so he was damned if he did or did not. There was no way for the Russians to win militarily and so the decision to withdraw and straighten out the front line was a good one.

The same thing can be said for Chiang Kai-shek. The more I read about the war in China the more evident it becomes that Chiang's blunders are either unavoidable or not that bad all things considered. He gets really badly criticized for holding onto Shanghai and incurring massive casualties to his best Divisions. However Shanghai is the economic lifeblood of China and a major industrial area. The meat grinder at Shanghai makes sense because holding off the Japanese at their bridge heads makes sense. The Japanese did incur casualties but not enough to put off the major thrust by the Central China Expeditionary Army. A lot of what we know appears to come from outsiders like Stilwell, who did not understand the National Revolution Army or their capabilities. Not only that but Chiang and his most capable commanders were able to hold off the Japanese on multiple occasions (specifically their various attacks into Sichuan and their attacks into Shaanxi). Apparently... the beginning of Chiang's defeat in 1947 was due to ill timed American intervention both in the form of arms shipments to Mao throughout 1938-1947 as well as pushing Chiang to make peace with Mao, at a time when Chiang was winning the war...
Holy crap McCarthy was right. :D

As a side note Stalin was not as inept as claimed (though not amazing). He correctly pointed out to STAVKA the need to defend the south. I would not be surprised if Mao also turned out to be fairly capable and blunders made by the PLA are falsely attributed to him.
 
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