Napoleon's Marshals

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
8,679
#51
He did though... What evidence do you want?
It seems evident that when even your staff officers are writing behind your back and telling your boss that your decision making is impaired there is something there. Or are you assuming that mental decline is separate from physical decline?
I would like some actual evidence of which you have provided none.

It;s you who are assuming about mental decline. Not me.

So what the actual evidence that the staff officers were critical of his decision making?
 
Jan 2015
5,427
Ontario, Canada
#52
I would like some actual evidence of which you have provided none.
Okay, like what?

It;s you who are assuming about mental decline. Not me.
The endless and pointless arguments never stop... I am, hence why I am asking if one is necessarily separate from the other. We can accept the premise that Massena was suffering from physical decline, can we not? Therefore is this not also the source of mental decline?

So what the actual evidence that the staff officers were critical of his decision making?
Staff officers like Fririon writing to Napoleon to tell him about it? I don't get the question... Why do I have to break down this basic concept?
 
Jan 2015
5,427
Ontario, Canada
#54
A person can be physically declining without mentally declining. One does not automatically suggest the other exists as well.
Yes? But my position is that Massena was suffering from both a physical and mental decline. The latter caused by fatigue and physical illness. Considering that Massena went on sick leave in 1807 and then in 1809 Napoleon received criticisms that Massena was mismanaging his Corps and was incapable of giving basic orders. Sounds like someone whose head isn't working and doesn't want to do the work.
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
8,679
#55
Do I have think for you as well . Some actual evidence that his decision making was impaired.

The endless and pointless arguments never stop... I am, hence why I am asking if one is necessarily separate from the other. We can accept the premise that Massena was suffering from physical decline, can we not? Therefore is this not also the source of mental decline?
Yes how tiresome that people ask for actual evidence and some reasoned argument rather than vague statements.

All you have ios the asusmption of your part that age and some physical impriarment never specified. Like What? Automatically means Massena wa sin decline. Endles vague GenerlaiΩations and hints. Well something concrete soem ailment or imjury that would lead to mental deteroioation rather than the bland assumption of your conclusion,

Staff officers like Fririon writing to Napoleon to tell him about it? I don't get the question... Why do I have to break down this basic concept?
How about quote of what Fririon was actually writing, some actual specifics rather than some vague generality.
And some actual evidenice provide a source or reference some sort of actual evdidence rather than general statements and hints.
 
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pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
8,679
#56
Yes? But my position is that Massena was suffering from both a physical and mental decline. The latter caused by fatigue and physical illness. Considering that Massena went on sick leave in 1807 and then in 1809 Napoleon received criticisms that Massena was mismanaging his Corps and was incapable of giving basic orders. Sounds like someone whose head isn't working and doesn't want to do the work.
But you have provoided no argument or evdidnece for the Mental decline other just bland statment that he was in mental decline for vague reasons, What illness, injury how did it effect him mentally?

But was that Any differnet form Massena in 1800. As a division commander leading from the front, detailed written orders were not really necessarily,. In 1809 in charge Corps an army in Portugal differnet skill set. There could be quite valid criticism that does not nesscailiry mean decline, it may be the changing needs of the larger roles he was entrusted with later in the wars exposing limitations that Massenea always had.

His Staff officers were writing in 1800 that he was mismanaging his corps.
 
Jan 2015
5,427
Ontario, Canada
#57
Do I have think for you as well . Some actual evidence that his decision making was impaired.
So you don't engage in pointless and pedantic arguments?
I am asking you what you consider evidence and you try to make it into an argument instead of just telling me what exactly you would want.

Yes how tiresome that people ask for actual evidence and some reasoned argument rather than vague statements.

All you have ios the asusmption of your part that age and some physical impriarment never specified. Like What? Automatically means Massena wa sin decline. Endles vague GenerlaiΩations and hints. Well something concrete soem ailment or imjury that would lead to mental deteroioation rather than the bland assumption of your conclusion,
I mentioned Fririon and the general complaints and issues Massena was having... can you infer at the very least?
So he frequently went on sick leave... was being undermined by his staff... was considered to have been incapable in an actual command role...

How about quote of what Fririon was acutally writng, soem actual specifics rather than some vague generality.
And some actual evidenice provide a source or reference some sort of actual evdidence rather than general statements and hints.
What kind of specifics? Is going on sick leave in 1807, being retired in 1810 and getting so extremely sick in 1812 that he had to immediately quit and go into retirement not specific enough?

I don't have a book in front of me at this immediate moment. Do I need to have a book in front of me at all times and make annotations to all of my posts in order to comment on a history website?

Honestly asking for a source doesn't bother me. But the assumption that something must be wrong because there is no source makes no sense. What is it they said about absence of evidence not being evidence of absence?

Anyway Fririon himself makes excessive mentions, in his Journal of the Campaign in Portugal, of Massena's strange behavior and easy manipulation by those around him.
 
Jan 2015
5,427
Ontario, Canada
#58
But you have provoided no argument or evdidnece for the Mental decline other just bland statment that he was in mental decline for vague reasons, What illness, injury how did it effect him mentally?
The kind of illnesses that don't allow the brain to function effectively? The kind that result from exhaustion and fatigue? Like when he was sidelined in 1812 for example. Again, why do I need to explain this? Isn't it obvious? I don't mean that he sprained his ankle and therefore couldn't think.

But was that Any differnet form Massena in 1800. As a division commander leading from the front, detailed written orders were not really necessarily,. In 1809 in charge Corps an army in Portugal differnet skill set. There could be quite valid criticism that does not nesscailiry mean decline, it may be the changing needs of the larger roles he was entrusted with later in the wars exposing limitations that Massenea always had.
As I explain below, he commanded armies before. Being unable to even command his troops was never a criticism.

His Staff officers were writing in 1800 that he was mismanaging his corps.
Like I said this was a different scenario from 1798 or what have you. Since in 1809 and 1810 the complaints went as far as Massena not actually doing anything and leaving the actual work to other people. As well as criticizing what decisions he did make and when he came to the front lines etc etc. If it was simply that he was limited as an Army commander then at the very least he would have been present to make decisions in person more often. The other criticism was that he was being easily swayed by other people like Pelet or Sainte-Croix or Beker and not taking into account the actual people in charge, like Fririon for instance.
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
8,679
#59
The kind of illnesses that don't allow the brain to function effectively? The kind that result from exhaustion and fatigue? Like when he was sidelined in 1812 for example. Again, why do I need to explain this? Isn't it obvious? I don't mean that he sprained his ankle and therefore couldn't think.
What illness? Have you some evidence that he suffered form anything that would have impaired his mental functions? Thae statment he had some unspecififec illness and your aasumption tehrefore he MSUt be impaired seems a leap of logic. Have you any actual information to base it on?


Like I said this was a different scenario from 1798 or what have you. Since in 1809 and 1810 the complaints went as far as Massena not actually doing anything and leaving the actual work to other people. As well as criticizing what decisions he did make and when he came to the front lines etc etc. If it was simply that he was limited as an Army commander then at the very least he would have been present to make decisions in person more often. The other criticism was that he was being easily swayed by other people like Pelet or Sainte-Croix or Beker and not taking into account the actual people in charge, like Fririon for instance.
It really hard to judge second hand garbled vague statments. Actual quotes are som much more informative. Is it only Fiion you are basing this on?
 
Mar 2016
946
Australia
#60
All of this arguing and I've still yet to see an actual primary source or first-hand account being quoted to support anything. Come on, this is getting ridiculous. Just arguing for the sake of it at this point. Can we please see some actual hard evidence rather than conjecture, assumptions and hear-say? Otherwise this argument will never end.
 

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