Nazis and religion.

stevev

Ad Honorem
Apr 2017
2,676
Las Vegas, NV USA
#21
I recall quotes of AH often citing "providence" as favoring his rise to power and the inevitability of world domination by a Master Race. That was presumably the "race" he belonged to. So AH had a fuzzy notion of a higher power which destined him and the German people to the task of realizing the commission given to him by "Providence". How else could this "Charlie Chaplin" style "marionette" rise so far so fast? (Hindenburg's description).
 
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Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
#22
Might be a bit off topic, but I think rather than the Nazis these charming gentlemen represented WW2 era Catholicism at its absolute best -
No surprise that the Catholic Church sided with Nazis, Fascist Italy, and Spain. Not sure about Peron. Was he a fascist, or simply just one of your nasty, odious dictators?

The Church has a history of siding with the status qoing back to when it first became the state religion in 380 ce , with the Edict Of Thessalonica, issued by emperor Theodosius. As time went by, the Church actually BECAME the status quo whenever it could.EG the papal states existed until the unification of Italy in the nineteenth century.

By the time of the renaissance, the Pope had more raw power than some kings.His power to excommunicate anyone who upset him was no taken lightly by princes. He miscalculated with Henry V111
 
Apr 2018
112
India
#23
No surprise that the Catholic Church sided with Nazis, Fascist Italy, and Spain. Not sure about Peron. Was he a fascist, or simply just one of your nasty, odious dictators?

The Church has a history of siding with the status qoing back to when it first became the state religion in 380 ce , with the Edict Of Thessalonica, issued by emperor Theodosius. As time went by, the Church actually BECAME the status quo whenever it could.EG the papal states existed until the unification of Italy in the nineteenth century.

By the time of the renaissance, the Pope had more raw power than some kings.His power to excommunicate anyone who upset him was no taken lightly by princes. He miscalculated with Henry V111
My knowledge of the Papacy in the medieval times is a bit out of sequence and sketchy, apart from the Sixtus-Borgia period (absolute worst period in the history of the Church if I'm not wrong). Therefore I tend to take everything related to the organization with a pinch of salt (maybe a bias I'm yet to overcome/reaffirm).

Btw some days back I saw a video of Pope Francis visiting Auschwitz. He seemed an empathetic nice guy.
 

Bart Dale

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
7,048
#24
No surprise that the Catholic Church sided with Nazis, Fascist Italy, and Spain. Not sure about Peron. Was he a fascist, or simply just one of your nasty, odious dictators?

The Church has a history of siding with the status qoing back to when it first became the state religion in 380 ce , with the Edict Of Thessalonica, issued by emperor Theodosius. As time went by, the Church actually BECAME the status quo whenever it could.EG the papal states existed until the unification of Italy in the nineteenth century.

By the time of the renaissance, the Pope had more raw power than some kings.His power to excommunicate anyone who upset him was no taken lightly by princes. He miscalculated with Henry V111
Compromising with and "siding" are 2 different things. The Catholic Church did not "side" with the Fascist as oppose to siding with the Allies.

An organization that has been around for a couple thousand years has ton learn to onwok with whoever is charge, or it wouldn't last, and he Fascist were in charge. Not surprising they reached an accommodation with the Fascist powers.

I have being said, the he Nazis always seem to o have a dislike of the Catholic Church, primarily I think because it was not feeling completely "German". Ultimately, the head of the Catholic Church was a non German pope of an international multi-ethnic organization, which would not appeal to the ultra nationalist Nazis.
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
#25
My knowledge of the Papacy in the medieval times is a bit out of sequence and sketchy, apart from the Sixtus-Borgia period (absolute worst period in the history of the Church if I'm not wrong). Therefore I tend to take everything related to the organization with a pinch of salt (maybe a bias I'm yet to overcome/reaffirm).

Btw some days back I saw a video of Pope Francis visiting Auschwitz. He seemed an empathetic nice guy.
Yeah, Francis does seem like a nice old grandpa. He certainly makes all the right noises. I'll begin to have some confidence in him after he has actually accomplished some vital changes. In the meantime, he remains the autocratic ruler of arguably the most corrupt institution on the planet.

The only other religious institution which came close ,or even surpassed the Catholic church seems to be the priesthood of Amun in ancient Egypt. I can't claim, to know this is true, . It's just an impression I've gleaned over the years. I'm sure an Egyptian scholar here will correct me if I'm wrong.
 

stevev

Ad Honorem
Apr 2017
2,676
Las Vegas, NV USA
#26
In principle the Catholic Church was more conducive to Nazi principles than protestant the churches. It was based in Fascist Italy and authoritarian. It downplayed the Old Testament which contained books that were the basis of Jewish faith. The Nazis moved to unite the the protestant churches and largely succeeded in molding them to the idea of one state, one people, one leader, one church. Churches that couldn't conform were shut down and in some cases prosecuted.

Protestant Churches and the Nazi State
 
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Likes: bboomer
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
#27
In principle the Catholic Church was more conducive to Nazi principles than protestant the churches. It was based in Fascist Italy and authoritarian. It downplayed the Old Testament which contained books that were the basis of Jewish faith. The Nazis moved to unite the the protestant churches and largely succeeded in molding them to the idea of one state, one people, one leader, one church. Churches that couldn't conform were shut down and in some cases prosecuted.

Protestant Churches and the Nazi State
Good point.

At least some Lutheran pastors spoke out publicly against the Nazi antisemitism.Not suer how many Catholic priests or bishops did the same. The behaviour of Pope Pius V1 during WW2 remains controversial. When looked at in the light of recent scandals a reasonable explanation emerges: The Pope did what popes have always done, to the present day; protected the Church, above all else.

There is also the famous case of the Lutheran pastor and theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer, executed by the Nazis for his part in Operation Valkyrie. I suspect he would have eventually been disappeared for his writings. Had he not been executed for his part in the conspiracy.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer (German: [ˈdiːtʁɪç ˈboːnhœfɐ]; 4 February 1906 – 9 April 1945) was a German pastor, theologian, anti-Nazi dissident, and key founding member of the Confessing Church. His writings on Christianity's role in the secular world have become widely influential, and his book The Cost of Discipleship has been described as a modern classic.[1]
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
#28
Good point.

At least some Lutheran pastors spoke out publicly against the Nazi antisemitism.Not suer how many Catholic priests or bishops did the same. The behaviour of Pope Pius V1 during WW2 remains controversial. When looked at in the light of recent scandals a reasonable explanation emerges: The Pope did what popes have always done, to the present day; protected the Church, above all else.

There is also the famous case of the Lutheran pastor and theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer, executed by the Nazis for his part in Operation Valkyrie. I suspect he would have eventually been disappeared for his writings. Had he not been executed for his part in the conspiracy.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer (German: [ˈdiːtʁɪç ˈboːnhœfɐ]; 4 February 1906 – 9 April 1945) was a German pastor, theologian, anti-Nazi dissident, and key founding member of the Confessing Church. His writings on Christianity's role in the secular world have become widely influential, and his book The Cost of Discipleship has been described as a modern classic.[1]

There was also some active German resistance, such as "The White Rose'', with mainly young students. They were caught, tried and executed in Munich. Their most famous member was Sophie Scholl.. These kids seemed to have been devout Lutherans

Sophia Magdalena Scholl (9 May 1921 – 22 February 1943) was a German student and anti-Nazi political activist, active within the White Rose non-violent resistance group in Nazi Germany.[1][2]
She was convicted of high treason after having been found distributing anti-war leaflets at the University of Munich (LMU) with her brother, Hans. As a result, she was executed by guillotine. Since the 1970s, Scholl has been extensively commemorated for her anti-Nazi resistance work.

Sophie Scholl - Wikipedia
 
Mar 2013
1,375
Escandinavia y Mesopotamia
#29
Germany was roughly half protestant/catholic country so it seems very plausible that the majority of Nazis were (at least nominal) Christians. Himmler was, as mentioned earlier, a weird exception that believed in ancient religious occultism.
However, I don’t think one can say that Nazi’s ideology was particularly Christianity. Christianity was just part of it, but in periphery. Pretty much as Kemal Ataturk where he was (at least nominal) Muslim, but Islam was not his main ideology.

In addition I recall reading of a diary by Albert Speer, where Speer recalls How Hitler told Goebbels and Goering to remain Catholics as opposed to leaving the Church. Speer discussed how Hitler was a Catholic until his dying breath.
Actually, it appeared that Hitler thought that Islam was more compatible with Nazi-Germans than Christianity due to Christianity having a “weak”-attitude:

“You see, it’s been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn’t we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?”

Source: “Islamized Germans”

Taking into consideration that Mouhammed was a successful warlord who ordered massacres and took sexslaves, while Jesus was a soft/weak person like Gandhi, then I understand Hitler’s fantasies.
 
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