Nazis and religion.

Mar 2013
1,375
Escandinavia y Mesopotamia
#31
Absolutely, Nietzsche was rabidly anti-Christian and encouraged that people rather should follow their animal instincts instead of being "enslaved” by moral like Christianity.

However, If my mind serves me right I think it was his sister that corrupted some of his texts since she was pro-nazi.
 
Mar 2018
476
UK
#32
Yes, I've heard that recently too. But whatever Nietzsche the person said, what will fundamentally be remembered is the views that are attributed to Nietzsche the philosopher, whether he actually held them or not.
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
#34
@El Cid

"Taking into consideration that Mouhammed was a successful warlord who ordered massacres and took sexslaves, while Jesus was a soft/weak person like Gandhi, then I understand Hitler’s fantasies."

How quaint to find somebody whose perceptions coincide with those of Hitler.

The prophet had many fine qualities. Being a warlord who married an 8 year old child are not among them

Gandhi once said 'I am not passive anything' . His Satyagraha movement was about nonviolent civil disobedience. His followers were often beaten by authorities. That kind of commitment demands great personal courage. Just as, for example does that of the conscientious objector in war time.

Jesus' admonition of 'turn the other cheek' is one of the most consistently ignored religious precepts in history. Passive resistance as a tactic is anything but weak. I read an essay on the topic many years ago, called "The Surrender Tactics Of Jesus Christ" , which explained the psychological advantage of such a position. Can't find it on line, however, there are a couple of entries on" the Power Tactics Of Jesus Christ" . OF COURSE such writings make the unproven/unprovable assumption that The New Testament accurately reports the life and teachings of Jesus. Always a trap for scholars to accept any holy book as essentially factual.

It also aligns quite strongly with Nietzsche, who had a big influence on Nazi ideology
Well, the Nazis liked to claim that, because they [deliberately?} misinterpreted Nietzsche. Check it out, there is a LOT of stuff online about Nazis misinterpretation of Nietzsche. Below just one example:

.
"Although Nietzsche may have had a similar attitude towards concepts such as religion, the will to power, and the idea of an Übermensch (Superhuman) that the Nazis coincided with, his work was not intended to be used in reference to, or in support of, Nazism and/or Fascism. The Nazis misused Nietzsche's philosophy, misinterpreted his views and distorted his intentions to further support their own objectives. One must first know a little history of both Nietzsche and the Nazis before being able to establish any connection between the two. "

Nietzsche’s Influence on the Nazis: Intended or Misinterpreted? - Term Paper
 
Apr 2018
454
Upland, Sweden
#35
In principle the Catholic Church was more conducive to Nazi principles than protestant the churches. It was based in Fascist Italy and authoritarian. It downplayed the Old Testament which contained books that were the basis of Jewish faith. The Nazis moved to unite the the protestant churches and largely succeeded in molding them to the idea of one state, one people, one leader, one church. Churches that couldn't conform were shut down and in some cases prosecuted.

Protestant Churches and the Nazi State
The protestant churche (i.e. the reformed and lutheran churches, essentially) were already on the train to unity way back in the early 1800s with Friedrich Wilhelm who created the Prussian Union of Churches. Apart from that detail I agree - the catholic church might have been more theologically fit (maybe?), but the protestant churches were much better integrated into the Third Reich than the Catholic Church ever was.
 
Apr 2018
454
Upland, Sweden
#36
Germany was roughly half protestant/catholic country so it seems very plausible that the majority of Nazis were (at least nominal) Christians. Himmler was, as mentioned earlier, a weird exception that believed in ancient religious occultism.
However, I don’t think one can say that Nazi’s ideology was particularly Christianity. Christianity was just part of it, but in periphery. Pretty much as Kemal Ataturk where he was (at least nominal) Muslim, but Islam was not his main ideology.



Actually, it appeared that Hitler thought that Islam was more compatible with Nazi-Germans than Christianity due to Christianity having a “weak”-attitude:

“You see, it’s been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn’t we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?”

Source: “Islamized Germans”

Taking into consideration that Mouhammed was a successful warlord who ordered massacres and took sexslaves, while Jesus was a soft/weak person like Gandhi, then I understand Hitler’s fantasies.
Isn't the primary source for this "Hitler's table talk"? Not to be a stickler or anything, but Hitler said a lot of things at a lot of times. The guys was on morphine for half the war and was generally much more of an artsy-fartsy guy and convincing demagogue than a statesman. I think we lend his opinions far too much credit, and underestimate the somewhat anarchic, organic and broad nature of the central tenets of German National-Socialism. There wasn't a German COMINTERN enforcing party discipline the same ways the Soviets did...


With that being said, I don't disagree with you entirely. Some people point to connections between some Grand Mufti of somewhere and the Nazis (the exakt place I forget).
 
Apr 2018
454
Upland, Sweden
#37
There is a strong case to be made (some mentioned Nietzsche, from what I've read of him a case could be made that he even predicted Nazism...) that National-Socialism offered a more secular - if not entirely so - substitute for religion in and of itself, I think.
 
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Oct 2013
1,275
Monza, Italy
#38
Nietzsche hated what had been mainstream thought from Socrate to 1800 and considered Plato as an anticipation of Christianity because of its metaphysical vision of good and evil, I think he can hardly be related in the Nazi's cultural milieu; personally I don't remember him celebrating animal instinct and war as a value itself, more celebrating pre-Socratic order; a part from the Nazi average militant, I believe there was an elite whose attitude toward religions can be related to the writings of Evola and Guenon (especially the first one, while the latter preferred brahma), let's consider that since the times of Shopenhauer Eastern culture was studied among German more "rebellious" intellectuals, and there was a sort of hostility toward the whole Judeo-Christian vision of the world who in their eyes had to be replaced by a sort of pantheistic relationship between man and nature (see Chapoutet, The Law of Blood, among other things). This may explain also naturism and a certain love of nature among the Nazis.
 
Apr 2018
454
Upland, Sweden
#39
Nietzsche hated what had been mainstream thought from Socrate to 1800 and considered Plato as an anticipation of Christianity because of its metaphysical vision of good and evil, I think he can hardly be related in the Nazi's cultural milieu; personally I don't remember him celebrating animal instinct and war as a value itself, more celebrating pre-Socratic order; a part from the Nazi average militant, I believe there was an elite whose attitude toward religions can be related to the writings of Evola and Guenon (especially the first one, while the latter preferred brahma), let's consider that since the times of Shopenhauer Eastern culture was studied among German more "rebellious" intellectuals, and there was a sort of hostility toward the whole Judeo-Christian vision of the world who in their eyes had to be replaced by a sort of pantheistic relationship between man and nature (see Chapoutet, The Law of Blood, among other things). This may explain also naturism and a certain love of nature among the Nazis.
At the risk of sounding vaguely similar to the Nazis, I think "love of nature" is a North-Germanic thing. It is the norm in Scandinavia to have a very warm relationship with nature. I don't want to quote Tacitus, and I don't want to draw the arguments of essentialism too strongly, but there might be something to that particular connection....

In the German case there is also the influence of German romanticism, which ties into Shopenhauer as well as the esotericism many on the right had going - as well as the love of nature. I furthermore find it interesting that the old Prussian elite under Wilhelm II (see the Wikipedia entry for Philip of Eulenburg, "The Kaiser's best friend") had so many strange, superficially weird beliefs as they did: they liked to play "monarchy", caring absurdly much about symbol, old rituals and modern pantheistisc esotericism the likes of which you speak. It is conspicuous how many of the ways the Germans (especially the Prussians) liked to divide themselves from the French and English are based on rather anti-rationalistic: Germany has culture, the Westerners mere debased and soulless civilization. The Germans are led by leaders with real concrete ties to their people, and who embody symbolic values both of leadership as well as Germanness. The Westerners are led by emasculated weaklings of different kinds, with no intention to uphold the national interest etc. The race of the Germans (or Germanics) is purer, less diluted and more refined in character. Etc. Etc. Etc.

There was, from my understanding of the period, a great willingness to distinguish oneself from ones neighbours of grounds of "soul", the purposefully hard to measure and quantify. A movement like the Nazis would have been aided by such sentiments, I think, and they would have encouraged an aura of mysticism among many Nazis.


All of that being said, I think the Prussians perhaps had a point in some of their criticisms of the Western powers...
 
Likes: Lm1985
Dec 2015
3,232
USA
#40
@El Cid

"Taking into consideration that Mouhammed was a successful warlord who ordered massacres and took sexslaves, while Jesus was a soft/weak person like Gandhi, then I understand Hitler’s fantasies."

How quaint to find somebody whose perceptions coincide with those of Hitler.

The prophet had many fine qualities. Being a warlord who married an 8 year old child are not among them

Gandhi once said 'I am not passive anything' . His Satyagraha movement was about nonviolent civil disobedience. His followers were often beaten by authorities. That kind of commitment demands great personal courage. Just as, for example does that of the conscientious objector in war time.

Jesus' admonition of 'turn the other cheek' is one of the most consistently ignored religious precepts in history. Passive resistance as a tactic is anything but weak. I read an essay on the topic many years ago, called "The Surrender Tactics Of Jesus Christ" , which explained the psychological advantage of such a position. Can't find it on line, however, there are a couple of entries on" the Power Tactics Of Jesus Christ" . OF COURSE such writings make the unproven/unprovable assumption that The New Testament accurately reports the life and teachings of Jesus. Always a trap for scholars to accept any holy book as essentially factual.



Well, the Nazis liked to claim that, because they [deliberately?} misinterpreted Nietzsche. Check it out, there is a LOT of stuff online about Nazis misinterpretation of Nietzsche. Below just one example:

.
"Although Nietzsche may have had a similar attitude towards concepts such as religion, the will to power, and the idea of an Übermensch (Superhuman) that the Nazis coincided with, his work was not intended to be used in reference to, or in support of, Nazism and/or Fascism. The Nazis misused Nietzsche's philosophy, misinterpreted his views and distorted his intentions to further support their own objectives. One must first know a little history of both Nietzsche and the Nazis before being able to establish any connection between the two. "

Nietzsche’s Influence on the Nazis: Intended or Misinterpreted? - Term Paper
Just to note Aisha was 20 years old upon Marriage age to Muhammad. Muhammad was also a great and heroic leader whom led men and women in arms just as other heroes of history have. Muhammad never had sex slaves, such a view is what the Third Reich claimed of Judaism and what as you can see my friend is what anti Muslims claim of Muhammad. The Reich like anti Muslims of today, put Judaism on trail and even had high quality produced videos trying to show Judaism as violent and backwards.

Turn the other cheek can be interpreted in a # of ways. Some Christians say Jesus taught to fight for what is right and perhaps turn the other cheek means when the bad guys have been defeated in a war that mercy should be shown. Its why in Christianity we have so called warrior Saints, how today the greatest military power in The USA is led by Christians.