Nazismophobia, fascismophobia, communismophobia

Aug 2013
613
Pomerium
#1
Blaming a belief system and an entire group for what extremists and fundamentalists did and do is, allegedly, bigotry - the script is something like: perpetration in the name of belief system A has nothing to do with belief system A, many members of group A are moderate/peaceful/nominal.

People often call out communismophobia because they don't hold communism or all adherents of communism responsible for the purges, gulags, and you name it.

Then why should National Socialism and all adherents of National Socialism be hold responsible for the perpetration in the name of National Socialism?
 
Apr 2016
900
Netherlands
#2
Blaming a belief system and an entire group for what extremists and fundamentalists did and do is, allegedly, bigotry - the script is something like: perpetration in the name of belief system A has nothing to do with belief system A, many members of group A are moderate/peaceful/nominal.

People often call out communismophobia because they don't hold communism or all adherents of communism responsible for the purges, gulags, and you name it.

Then why should National Socialism and all adherents of National Socialism be hold responsible for the perpetration in the name of National Socialism?
The ideas of a totalitarian state are inherent to the ideology of Nazism and Stalinism, that alone already makes them despicable ideologies.
 

Shtajerc

Ad Honorem
Jul 2014
6,698
Lower Styria, Slovenia
#4
People often call out communismophobia because they don't hold communism or all adherents of communism responsible for the purges, gulags, and you name it.
I see this a lot, new forms of marxism are popular, which is totally beyond me. You ask them, how can they be pro-marxist if communism caused so much death, famine and bad things? They say that it's not the right form of communism or that leaders were corrupt. But I disagree. Communism was tried put in various forms. Be it the Soviet Union, Albania, China, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela or Yugoslavia, all the various forms of communism are failures. Not to mention that the final stage of marxism is basically impossible to achieve.

Blaming an entire ideology is not bigotry. In this case it can't be, looking at all the deaths they caused, all the suffering and pain. It must be condemed collectively
 

robto

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
6,069
Lisbon, Portugal
#5
I see this a lot, new forms of marxism are popular, which is totally beyond me. You ask them, how can they be pro-marxist if communism caused so much death, famine and bad things? They say that it's not the right form of communism or that leaders were corrupt. But I disagree. Communism was tried put in various forms. Be it the Soviet Union, Albania, China, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela or Yugoslavia, all the various forms of communism are failures. Not to mention that the final stage of marxism is basically impossible to achieve.

Blaming an entire ideology is not bigotry. In this case it can't be, looking at all the deaths they caused, all the suffering and pain. It must be condemed collectively
The examples of Soviet Union, Albania, China, Yugoslavia and North Korea are all the same - they are Soviet-style Marxist-Leninist regimes with a single highly bureaucratic vanguard-party state which implement a central planned economy.
Venezuela is more of a populist democratic socialist government, but that regime is not in any way responsible of millions for deaths as Marxism-Leninism was.

Blaming Marx for the deaths caused by communism is like blaming Jesus Christ for the Crusades and the religious wars of 17th century.
Marx didn't at all engineered or created the political system that Lenin and Stalin built in Russia and later exported to the entire world during the 20th century.

Scandinavian and German social-democracy is also Marxist in origin and came from the ideas of Karl Marx. Many other political ideologies influenced by Marx ideas haven't actually been tried like Libertarian socialism (anarchism), various forms of democratic socialism, Council Communism (luxembourgism), etc, etc.
 
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Shtajerc

Ad Honorem
Jul 2014
6,698
Lower Styria, Slovenia
#6
The examples of Soviet Union, Albania, China, Yugoslavia and North Korea are all the same - they are Soviet-style Marxist-Leninist regimes with a single highly bureaucratic vanguard-party state which implement a central planned economy.
Venezuela is more of a populist democratic socialist government, but that regime is not in any way responsible of millions of deaths as Marxism-Leninism was.

Blaming Marx for the deaths caused by communism is like blaming Jesus Christ for the Crusades and the religious wars of 17th century.
Marx didn't at all engineered or created the political system that Lenin and Stalin built in Russia and later exported to the entire world during the 20th century.

Scandinavian and German social-democracy is also Marxism in origin and came from the ideas of Karl Marx. Many other political ideologies influenced by Marx ideas haven't actually been tried like Libertarian socialism (anarchism), various forms of democratic socialism, Council Communism (luxembourgism), etc, etc.
So, one or two out of numerous others didn't end in a terrible bloodshed. Hardly a success.

I never blaimed Marx for what Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao and the other guys did. Nor do I blame Jesus or Mohammed for religious wars. It's not their fault how others interpret their ideas after they're already gone.

As for what's not been tried yet, I have nothing against it, if the majority of a nation votes people with such ideas in power and they try to make them work. However, if it doesn't work, or the people want to vote someone different into power, they should not use force and repression to stay in power themseles or to silence the oposition.
 
Jan 2010
4,439
Atlanta, Georgia USA
#7
Blaming Marx for the deaths caused by communism is like blaming Jesus Christ for the Crusades and the religious wars of 17th century.
Marx didn't at all engineered or created the political system that Lenin and Stalin built in Russia and later exported to the entire world during the 20th century.

.
Agree--can't blame Marxism alone, but you can blame Marxism-Leninism.
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
26,591
Italy, Lago Maggiore
#8
This thread starts from a wrong premises: it's not a phobia, but a reaction to negative experiences.

And just to be comprehensive, present lay Western societies react in the same way to the idea of a Crusade: a mad idea in the mind of a Christian extremist.
 

Solidaire

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
5,477
Athens, Greece
#9
Blaming a belief system and an entire group for what extremists and fundamentalists did and do is, allegedly, bigotry - the script is something like: perpetration in the name of belief system A has nothing to do with belief system A, many members of group A are moderate/peaceful/nominal.

People often call out communismophobia because they don't hold communism or all adherents of communism responsible for the purges, gulags, and you name it.

Then why should National Socialism and all adherents of National Socialism be hold responsible for the perpetration in the name of National Socialism?
Communism is a rather utopian ideology with good intentions in theory, that failed in practice and was, at times, implemented atrociously.

Nazism was a dystopian ideology, with rotten intentions to begin with. Its practice pretty much followed suit, being consistent to the ideology. The horrors of Nazism was not some sort of ideological failure or betrayal of its ideals, it pretty much delivered what it promised: utter horror. It only failed to see them through and win a total victory.

Fascism is just a lighter version of Nazism, a dystopian totalitarian system of beliefs which just don't take things to the extremes that Nazism reached.

This recent trend to try and equate Communism with Nazism is a dangerous and suspicious one, especially when criticism towards Communism is expanded on Marxism as well. Of course Stalinism should be condemned for what it was, but Marxism is a socioeconomic theory, not a political system, which still has a lot to offer, at least as a counterbalance to the extremes of Capitalism (that's the reason it was created for in the first place, after all). This is why it is widely taught in Universities around the world.

As for Nazism, there can be no excuse, justification or whitewashing. Comparing it to Communism might serve as such, that these Swastika guys weren't that bad, after all: the Communists did so many ugly things too. Oh yes, they did. So did the Romans. And the Mongols. And the Japanese. And others. We are often a vile, warped species. But the Nazis take the cake, because their evilness was not only in practice, but in theory too, the scientific institutionalisation and theorisation of evil intentions.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,543
Portugal
#10
Communism is a rather utopian ideology with good intentions in theory, that failed in practice and was, at times, implemented atrociously.

Nazism was a dystopian ideology, with rotten intentions to begin with. Its practice pretty much followed suit, being consistent to the ideology. The horrors of Nazism was not some sort of ideological failure or betrayal of its ideals, it pretty much delivered what it promised: utter horror. It only failed to see them through and win a total victory.

Fascism is just a lighter version of Nazism, a dystopian totalitarian system of beliefs which just don't take things to the extremes that Nazism reached.

This recent trend to try and equate Communism with Nazism is a dangerous and suspicious one, especially when criticism towards Communism is expanded on Marxism as well. Of course Stalinism should be condemned for what it was, but Marxism is a socioeconomic theory, not a political system, which still has a lot to offer, at least as a counterbalance to the extremes of Capitalism (that's the reason it was created for in the first place, after all). This is why it is widely taught in Universities around the world.

As for Nazism, there can be no excuse, justification or whitewashing. Comparing it to Communism might serve as such, that these Swastika guys weren't that bad, after all: the Communists did so many ugly things too. Oh yes, they did. So did the Romans. And the Mongols. And the Japanese. And others. We are often a vile, warped species. But the Nazis take the cake, because their evilness was not only in practice, but in theory too, the scientific institutionalisation and theorisation of evil intentions.
Excellent!!! Excellent post!