Nebuchadnezzer (Historical fiction)

Feb 2013
4,303
Coastal Florida
#21
Well, whether the Biblical Hittites were connected to the Hittites of the powerful Empire or not, the point is that the Bible definitely places Hitties in the vicinity of Canaan, meaning that the ‘Hatti-land’ of the chronicles could easily be referring to this area, not Anatolia.
See this map.



It's a representation of the Neo-Hittite kingdoms I mentioned. Note the proximity to Israel at the bottom of the map. Note also the difference between this map and the one posted earlier. Here, the Hittites are centered on the bend of the Mediterranean Sea where the Levant ends and Anatolia begins. On the other map, this is merely the extreme southern portion of the land occupied by the earlier Hittite Empire. Hence, the Hatti-Land known to Nebuchadnezzar II was merely a shadow of it's former self and much smaller. He was also already there when he got to the northern Levant and he never had to campaign into the depths of Anatolia.

Regarding Abraham’s interaction with the Philistines, perhaps you’ll find this quote from a reference work to be of interest:

Some object to the Genesis references to Philistine residence in Canaan, arguing that the Philistines did not settle there until the 12th century B.C.E. But this objection does not rest on a solid basis. The New Bible Dictionary edited by J. Douglas (1985, p. 933) observes: “Since the Philistines are not named in extra-biblical inscriptions until the 12th century BC, and the archaeological remains associated with them do not appear before this time, many commentators reject references to them in the patriarchal period as anachronistic.” However, in showing why such a position is not sound, mention is made of the evidence of a major expansion of Aegean trade reaching back to about the 20th century B.C.E. It is pointed out that a particular group’s not being prominent enough to be mentioned in the inscriptions of other nations does not prove that the group did not exist. The conclusion reached in that New Bible Dictionary is: “There is no reason why small groups of Philistines could not have been among the early Aegean traders, not prominent enough to be noticed by the larger states.”

Crucial to understanding the logic there is the fact that the Bible (and extra-Biblical evidence, I believe) locates the home of the Philistines as being Crete, in the Aegean.
This rationalization is unsound. Fortunately, we have extensive archaeology from the Phillistine Pentapolis as these sites have been under excavation for many years. We don't have to rely on the monumental reliefs carved on the outer wall of Medinet Habu to know they arrived in the 12th century. We can actually see their arrival empirically in the stratrigraphy of the sites they occupied. There is a clear cultural break at these sites. Also, the pottery assemblage shows they brought foreign pottery with them but soon started making the same style of pottery from local fabric. Considering the extent of the evidence, I don't believe it's reasonable to accept an earlier arrival for this group. As for the claimed large increase in Aegean trade going back to 2000BC spoken of in the quote, it's rather vague so I'm not sure what they're referring to.
 
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Jul 2017
842
Crete
#22
The name of the place didn't change. I believe what you see are mere transliterations from one language to another.
Nebuchadnezzar went towards a Greek border fortress and seemingly crowned King of Egypt

Daphnae (16 miles from Pelusium) .

In 333 BC, Pelusium opened its gates to Alexander the Great, who placed a garrison in it under the command of one of those officers entitled Companions of the King. (Arrian, Exp. Alex. iii. 1, seq.; Quintus Curtius iv. 33.)

Alexander the Great is the only non-Egyptian to be crowned King of Egypt without quarrel or force.

"pronounced son of the deity Amun at the Oracle of Siwa Oasis in the Libyan desert."

Apollo was the patron deity of Alexander the Great, wears a laurel wreath on his head , Δάφνη is the Greek word for Laurel .
 
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Feb 2013
4,303
Coastal Florida
#23
Nebuchadnezzar went towards a Greek border fortress and seemingly crowned King of Egypt

Daphnae (16 miles from Pelusium) .

In 333 BC, Pelusium opened its gates to Alexander the Great, who placed a garrison in it under the command of one of those officers entitled Companions of the King. (Arrian, Exp. Alex. iii. 1, seq.; Quintus Curtius iv. 33.)

Alexander the Great is the only non-Egyptian to be crowned King of Egypt without quarrel or force.

"pronounced son of the deity Amun at the Oracle of Siwa Oasis in the Libyan desert."

Apollo was the patron deity of Alexander the Great, wears a laurel wreath on his head , Δάφνη is the Greek word for Laurel .
I don't really see where this is relevant. Also, you realize all of Alexander's Egyptian successors were Greeks of the Ptolemy line, right? It was actually rather peaceful for a long time. Well, at least until Cleopatra mucked everything up lol
 
Jul 2017
842
Crete
#24
The reference too Philistine in the Book of Genesis is vaguely mistranslated, it's actually states, they are Cappadocian.

Ludiim ( Lydia )
Pathrusim (Pteria)
Kaphtor (Cappadocia)

Herodotus refers too Palestine as a district of Syria.
 
Feb 2013
4,303
Coastal Florida
#25
The reference too Philistine in the Book of Genesis is vaguely mistranslated, it's actually states, they are Cappadocian.

Ludiim ( Lydia )
Pathrusim (Pteria)
Kaphtor (Cappadocia)
You see more about the confusion of geographics names here. For one thing, you're seeing claims made long after the fact. Under a reasonable inferred interpretation, the time period for Abraham to have lived would be something like 1800BC. The Phillistines landed on the coast of Canaan circa 1175BC. The biblical text went through a number of redactions over several hundred years and didn't reach it's final form until the latter half of the 1st millennium BC. Hence, there is all sorts of room for "misremembering".

As far as Kaphtor is concerned, I don't believe it's possible to identify it with Cappadocia because that region is far to the north in Anatolia and well-inland. There is some uncertainty about it but I ascribe to the view that Kaphtor is a cognate with the Egyptian Keftiu and is a reference to the island of Crete. This is because the term was also used in extant inscriptions at several locations in Egypt and the Levant. Along with that, we have evidence that Minoan artisans (natives of Crete) traveled to these cities as something like an artist in residence type of deal. In fact, they left behind Minoan-style murals at these locations and that's how we know they were there. This "artist exchange program" was taking place ~1500 BC, near the beginning of Egypt's 18th Dynasty. We know this because, after the Egyptians retook Avaris from the Hyksos, a royal palace was built and it contained these murals. Hence, these folks were known throughout Egypt and Canaan long before the Phillistines (Peleset) came on the scene.

Herodotus refers too Palestine as a district of Syria.
More confusion about the names. At times, the Egyptians also referred to Canaan simply as Syria. Whether this is due to ignorant scribes, scribal errors or some other reason, it falls under the "who knows" category and shouldn't be seen as very significant. It seems as if whoever was writing would write down whatever they considered the regional name of the place to be unless there was a reason to be very specific.
 
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Jul 2017
842
Crete
#26
They are no dates in the Bible, where does 1800 BC or 1175 BC come from?

The Language of the Torah is a late dialect of Phoenicia, the stories are Hellenistic.

Capthor & Cappadocia are topographical words, 'Capthor' is cognate with the Latin word Capital ( of a pillar) or the Knop of a plant.

Cappadocia (כַּפְתּוֹר)


Knop of a Plant (כַּפְתּוֹר)
 
Jul 2017
842
Crete
#27
Amos 9:7
The Philistines from Caphtor and the Syrians from Kir.

In the LXX Septuagint, Kaphtor is Καππαδοκίας .

Kapthor [כַּפְתּוֹר] 'Strong's H3730'
- bulb, knob, capital, capital of a pillar
 
Feb 2013
4,303
Coastal Florida
#28
They are no dates in the Bible, where does 1800 BC or 1175 BC come from?
Admittedly, the 1800BC date for Abraham is a speculative estimate. He could have been earlier or later. It's also possible Abraham is little more than a composite character whose biography was composed over time. My estimation takes several factors into account, mainly political upheavals which may have prompted him to leave southern Mesopotamia and archaeological evidence concerning major events depicted in his life (his dealings with the cities of the plain).

As for the 1175 date for the arrival of the Phillistines, that one is actually pretty solid when considering the totality of the evidence from archaeology.

The Language of the Torah is a late dialect of Phoenicia, the stories are Hellenistic.
Ancient Hebrew and Phoenician are rather similar. Although, considering their proximity, that's not really a surprise. Both are forms of West Semitic Canaanite. Their scripts were both derived from Egyptian script as well. As for influences, there were a lot of them. However, I wouldn't generalize the text as Hellenistic in terms of a primary influence from the Greeks. On the contrary, the Near and Middle East has had a rich literary history for thousands of years and the biblical text greatly reflects this literary tradition. The wisdom literature is remarkably similar. In particular, the similarities between Pharaoh Akhenaten's Great Hymn to the Aten and Psalm 104 are kind of eerie. Similarities between many of the early stories in Genesis and Sumerian literature are also uncanny in many respects. It's hard to see how they didn't borrow stuff when they came in contact with the cultures around them.

Capthor & Cappadocia are topographical words, 'Capthor' is cognate with the Latin word Capital ( of a pillar) or the Knop of a plant.
I think you're out on a limb there but, hey, you're writing fiction so you can put it however you want.
 
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Jul 2017
842
Crete
#29
There was no Hebrew or Phoenicians language around 1800 BCE , the story of Abraham is a late story, written during the Hellenistic period. There is no chronological obscurity. There is very little similarities between the Hymn of Aten & Psalms 104, this is Phoenician poetry describing the geography of Lebanon.

(16) The trees of the LORD are full of sap; the cedars of Lebanon, which he hath planted

Fact (not fiction)
Kapthor [כַּפְתּוֹר] - bulb, knob, capital, capital of a pillar
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=H3730
 
Last edited:
Jul 2017
842
Crete
#30
Phoenicians are primarily known as Merchants , they had dozen colonies throughout the Mediterranean, Carthage, Sicily , Cadiz and many others.

'Israel' & 'Judea' are interchanging topographical terms for main-land Phoenicia .

Israelites, Syrians, Palestinians, Judeans & Hebrews are Phoenicians.
Aeolics, Dorians & Attics are Greeks.
 

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