need help with GLOBAL BC history for science fiction use... *gasp* sacrilege, i know

Nov 2016
1,023
Germany
Since you're new here, I'll give you a hint to quote: If you move the cursor over the text you want to quote (left mouse button) and then release it (i.e. you mark the text), a window appears with the text "Quote/Reply". You choose "Quote", then this quote is saved and you can insert it into your answer field ("Insert quotes"), where the author of the quote is named and also receives a message that he or she was quoted by you. You can also mark several passages from different users one after the other and save them as a quote. These quotes will then be inserted as a group in the reply field.

as i see the church as the CAUSE of the dark ages... yeah... christianity is a non-issue in the story... science and rationality prevail.
Of course, but if you want even historians to take your novel seriously, you should not change the spirit of that epoch too much at your own discretion, but place it in a balanced relationship with your innovative ideas (fact-fiction). And the spirit of that epoch was very religious. By omitting Christianity (for which, as I said, you should find a historically plausible explanation), the religiosity of that epoch does not disappear, it still exists in the form of numerous cults, such as the Mithras cult, the Isis cult and the Cybelic cult. If you ignore this, historically knowledgeable readers will quickly jump out of your story. And the book critics will also take a negative view of this and say you made it too easy for yourself.

In my opinion, a story of this type would be about showing how in a strongly religious environment a relatively sophisticated technique can be created that harmonizes with the religious spirit of the time, which, as I said, you can't simply banish from the story at the push of a button without the story appearing untrustworthy.

Nor is it technology per se that contributes to the secularization (de-religionization) of a culture, but natural science, because an important motive for the development of religions was the human need to find an explanation for the origin and functioning of nature. To this end, you should highlight, for example, the ancient discovery that was ignored and forgotten, that the earth orbits around the sun, and present this discovery as accepted by the spiritual and political authorities of that time.

Aristarchus of Samos - Wikipedia

Quote:

It is a common misconception that the heliocentric view was held as sacrilegious by the contemporaries of Aristarchus.

Unlike monotheistic Christianity, polytheistic religions were by no means hostile to science and had no interest in burning people simply because they had innovative scientific ideas that contradicted the dogma of a supposed almighty God. Polytheistic religions, unlike Judaism and Christianity, were very tolerant, you should be aware of that.

the "righteous" chose mind opening hallucinogens which makes people mellower and more empathetic as well as less depressed. it won't go as far as the summer of love... but same idea.
The consumption of hallucinogens was also part of ancient Mediterranian culture, keyword Eleusinian mysteries and other mystery cults, as well as in the Orient and in the Far East. You don't necessarily have to add Indian drugs to the story for this purpose, even if it's an interesting and, in my opinion, constructive idea.

http://www.maps.org/images/pdf/books/eleusis.pdf
 
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Apr 2019
7
Tucson, AZ
thanks for the heads up on quoting. as i couldn't see a quote blurb, i went with hypertext markup. i'll have to learn your way which sounds easier.

real quick... christianity CAN'T be part of my story because the new timeline predates jesus by 1000 years. i'm not trying to cheat continuity. only things that happen before the new timeline are set in stone. as everything is taking a new direction, EVERYTHING is open for revision... you know... butterfly effect. nothing that happened in this timeline exists after the new direction. heck... the change in history prevents future emperors from even being born, though i'll seek inspiration from them in a sort of "rome is rome" style. i would have loved to bring alexander the great into the story. i think the reply i'm pasting after this elaborates on my ideas. as far as i'm concerned... if it's after roughly 1000bc, it never happened, period. remember, the bible was written by PEOPLE. it doesn't have to happen in a new timeline, and as i just came up with the idea of adding buddhism, that and native american etc. spirituality would steer events away from that happening.

the whole idea is to create a whole new world where anything REASONABLE is possible as long as it doesn't contradict facts.

the story would include the INEVITABLE discovery of evolution. as science progresses to where there's antigrav tech, evolution would have to be discovered, if not on the galapagos, then through observation or even DNA family tree sequencing. human ideas don't matter, but science can't be avoided.

the story's definitely not intended to be "for historians", so i can see experts taking issues with some of my ideas. what i'm trying to do is create a credible atmosphere. this is fiction, and science fiction at that, so of course much of the story will break from this timeline's reality and i'm sure there will be details that i get wrong (fewer of them with your help, hopefully) but overall, i want to capture history a little bit more believably than say "300" except for the technologies which are kind of the point of the story. i'd hope sci-fi/history buffs find the story relatable and that the details make suspension of disbelief (no story will ever satisfy EVERYONE) and that the details i'm seeking ground the story as well crafted and not merely entertaining.

anyways, here's the reply to yesterdays replies i wrote last night:
 
Apr 2019
7
Tucson, AZ
now that i've had time to fully read everyone's replies...

first off... yesterday, i WANTED to say matriarchy, but couldn't remember the word or get google to understand my search for it.

The Mithras cult has two central myths: the rock birth of Mithras and the Tauroctony. Here is some info about the rock birth (part of a still unfinished study of mine): ...
i don't know if the mithra cult is the same one i was talking about as the documentary i saw that mentioned them showed outdoor ruins, though i'll look into them to see if i can fit them into the story somehow, though they'd only be a side note, or part of the roman empire's legendary decadence. i wouldn't delve deeply into their mythology, just concentrate on their orgies.

BTW, i'm guessing most of you have already heard of "the walz of the chestnuts" (too late to fit my story). for anyone that hasn't... the pope throwing an orgy where everyone gets busy on chestnut shells and that includes his kids is almost as riveting as tales of Caligula.

again... too late for my story... another decadent papal celebration killed a young slave boy who was covered in gold dust... likely the inspiration behind the intry to goldfinger i bet

an interesting tidbit about rome (not the human rights advocates the "UN" is by a longshot in the story) i'm debating on including because it's just so hideously brutal are the parties where slaves would be burned alive inside metal oxen with open mouths so the EVIL party goers could hear their dying screams. (curse you Kurt Vonnegut for putting that image that can't be forgotten in my head!)

i'd HAVE TO include a mention of vomitoriums though. THAT is the kind of fascinating details i'm looking for besides understanding where the world's cultures would fit in the rome vs UN struggle. i'm looking for other corrupt/vicious cultures to add to the axis of evil. the dichotomy in the story will be pretty clear cut and simplified. i don't want to write another star wars: the phantom menace bogged down with grey areas. a simple good vs evil story as told by the flight crew of an airship.

before war breaks out... the characters wander the markets on shore leave where i can just do easier details... the neon, smells of food & neon, imported wares, artisans, & hustlers etc. for me, the hard part of the story is coming up with motivations beyond the UN not approving of the empire's "corporate crimes" and crimes against humanity without oversimplifying everything so much as to do that annoying believability stretch that annoys me in others' books. wherever possible, i want to adapt current events eg. the empire has its own propaganda network and relies on satellite allies for raw materials.

back to religion... i think i'll bypass christianity altogether and go with its more benign (?) pagan roots with the new timeline starting around 1-2000bc with "current events" around 1000ad.

back to china, they are to be the source of much of the tech in the story. hopefully, fireworks are 3,000 years old, but china was pretty far ahead in the curve in ancient times. that giant fleet of boats they built that possibly made it to america so far back blew my mind when i saw it in a documentary. i think that might be too modern for the timeline and i'll have to look the great wall up for a date.

as you know from history, arabs were really ahead of the curve in science before wars with europe, so they'll be a source of tech too. i'm pretty sure mohamed is fairly recent hisory, so islam wouldn't factor in the story either, BUT... i recently learned buddha actually predates jesus by a millenia. right here and now... i'm thinking he could be a major player in the story and another source of utopian idealism. yeah... i like that! the new timeline could start "in isolation" while he's still alive and his legacy could be current events at the birth of the information explosion. i like that idea a lot. buddha would NOT be fictionalized though eg. causing an earthquake by poking the earth with his finger, but an inspiration through his teachings... heck... like here... there could be historical debates about the true story. ;)

how's that for a forum tribute?

russia (mongols?) would have to be integrated into the story as that's the source of most of the world's titanium if i remember right. fertile land & sources of other raw materials will have to be integrated into the story and help define alliances. i'm thinking lack of access to north american farm land helps level the playing field as the empire can't be too outmatched bt the rest of the world.

i'm imagining that natives barter food for weapons to defend their territory as they are NOT a conquered people in the story and stay true their culture which inspires sprituality & environmentalism.

the world has a lot of ingredients... i'm trying to figure out how to blend them and what they taste like here, so to speak and make sure to find all of the major players' niches and what they contribute to their side.

i see african culture as a source for olympic athletes and musicians in the story with diamonds being its most valuable resource, much like today, but without the labor abuses. diversity & cultural autonomy are celebrated by the UN and attacked by the empire.

thinking about how laid back, environmentally aware & fair minded most of europe is today, a slightly more utopian emergent culture isn't hard to imagine. really, i think that most people would choose to be good, but it's the ruling elite that corrupt the masses the same way corporations are destroying not only the planet, but civilization itself.

this story was intended to be a "do the right thing & DESTROY authority" commentary from the beginning disguised as entertainment. (full disclosure in case you don't agree with bleeding heart liberal ideals and refuse to help spread them) it's also intended to bypass the corporate stranglehold on information and inspire people to ask the questions the 1% don't want asked.

along with greed comes psycopathy... that makes it easy to design villains that mirror today's enemies of democracy.

the UN utopia demands that news & politics etc. serve citizens and that lying gets fact checked and called out in public. a well informed electorate will tend to chose the greater good, i believe, IF it doesn't fall to apathy as current events show.

there's a new way to frame the story... history repeating itself backwards!

i've decided to give it a working title... "damascus steel", or just damascus for short... hmmm.... maybe i can work that into the source of the conflict... the UN corners the market on steel which drives the empire into its last gasp desperation.

another diversion i wanted to make was how the olympics help bind the UN together with new events eg. wrestling becomes MMA (WITH RULES!!!) i want to research ancient sports & fighting techniques as pretty much all of the current ones are less than a thousand years old as far as i know. i'm thinking that simply having other cultures participate creates a NEW fighting science. i'd like to add other ancient sports, but so far, the only 2 i know of are aztek/inca "football" (meaning NOT soccer if you're not american HAHAHAHA) and native american stick ball. i planned on working empire banning or boycotting into the story to add weight to the tensions.

thanks for your help so far. i hope this is proving fun to you unlike the way one never uses the algebra one learned in school. now i need to research a couple things from your notes so far and instead of wasting time trying to beat the clock with edits next time will read everything and reply from home as i'm doing now.

BTW... don't bite your tongues on constructive criticism. we are at war here... your input can save lives! LOL i can't guarantee that i'll agree with your ideas, but i will listen to them. for me, being proven wrong is WELCOME as it keeps me from looking stupid in the future if not the past. my logical personality type is more concerned with facts than feelings.

are we having fun yet?
 
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Apr 2019
7
Tucson, AZ
P.S. i toyed with the idea for the very first line in the novel...

3743 (?#) years ago, in another dimension...

go ahead! sue me disney! HAHAHAHA! just try to copyright time & location!

The consumption of hallucinogens was also part of ancient Mediterranian culture, keyword Eleusinian mysteries and other mystery cults, as well as in the Orient and in the Far East. You don't necessarily have to add Indian drugs to the story for this purpose, even if it's an interesting and, in my opinion, constructive idea.
it's important to me to establish native americans as the rightful owners of america in the story and that they are integral to the story in a thumbing of my nose against "the white devil". i have a keen interest in peyote and long to go on a vision quest myself. i have agendas with my ideas. i myself am half greek from my father and 37.5% euro mutt, but am proud that my great grandmother was native american as a tree hugger. it's also a way for me to thumb my nose at eurocentric victorian era steam punk.

as native americans belong to, not own, most of the fertile farming land on the planet, they have to be accounted for and i will not have them subjugated in my story. besides that... don't forget that THEY are where most of today's common vegetables come from and that THEY re-taught "advanced euros" agriculture.

actually, i have another alternate timeline story idea in my head where someone time travels back and gives natives modern weapons like machine guns and rocket launchers to repel white devil invaders from invading. i want this to be a critique of eurocentric revisionism so i'd rather go with native americans here than keeping everything euro. besides, i also believe in the strength of diversity so making it central to the story gives everything the weight of a melting pot of ideas precisely where no-one is excluded from the discussion. white nationalists will hate my story, but eff 'em! i'm proud my 50% native american granpa bagged three nazis. i digress.

if you're not familiar with it... this quote from chief seattle is deeply inspiring to me as a tree hugger...
"The land doesn't belong to the man,
the man belongs to the land"

THAT is the exact anti-capitalist sentiment i'm after here. it's destroying mother earth and this is MY WAY to fight back. there's reasons behind my ideas. i've been refining this idea for i don't know how many years, but my ideas stop at the brick wall of the history i know little about. native american respect for nature is ESSENTIAL (and not debatable) to my story.

i'm starting to think coming here might not have been my best idea ever. i'm on a very different wavelength than most people... a proud contrarian, and this is kind of a gathering place for people seeking the exact opposite of sci-fi.

OK... i'm a revisionist!
there! i said it!

maybe this is the wrong approach too. maybe i need to ask specific questions in specific threads eg. what were people eating in the middle east, china & india etc. 300 years ago and not get caught up with trying to make my ideas conform to this timeline. i'd hate not to research this and just wing it. that's exactly the lazy "because i said so" style of writing i'm trying to avoid.
 
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