New flags for former rebel states in USA

Status
Closed

MAGolding

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,895
Chalfont, Pennsylvania
#31
Designs for a new flag for Texas, for Texans to show how glad they are that the Confederacy was defeated.

Did you know that countries can have more than one flag for the purpose of a national flag?

Dr. Whitney Smith proposed six different purposes or functions of national flags. There are flags on land and ensigns at sea. And each set can be divided into civil, government, and military or naval flags or ensigns. A civil flag can be used by citizens on land, a government flag flies over government buildings, and a military flag flies over military installations (don't confuse the military flag in this sense with military colors, standards, and guidons used by military units). A civil ensign is used by private ships, a government ensign is used by government ships, and a naval ensign is used by naval ships.

And I could add that hypothetically there could be air flags, painted on airplanes and flown at airports, in civil, government, and military versions, and space flags painted on space craft and flown at space ports, in civil, government, and military versions.

Anyway, a number of countries have more than one version of the national flag, such as civil, government, and military versions, or different national flags and national ensigns.

And sometimes there may be alternate versions of flags used for the same purposes, different versions that it is more or less permitted to use for the same purpose.

What is possible for national flags is also possible for the flags of sub national governmental units such as cities, provinces, counties, cantons, states, etc. A state in the United States can authorize alternate versions of the its civil flag and/or civil ensign for citizens to choose which version they desire to fly on land or on their boats, for example.

Since the most enlightened government of Texas during the 19th century was probably that of the Fifth Military District during Reconstruction, a flag design honoring the Fifth Military District seems a good idea.

In 1921, William Carlos Williams (1883-1963) wrote a poem inspired by a fire engine "The Great Figure"

Among the rain
and lights
I saw the figure 5
in gold
on a red
firetruck
moving
tense
unheeded
to gong clangs
siren howls
and wheels rumbling
through the dark city.

In 1928, Charles Demuth was inspired by the poem to paint I saw the Figure Five in Gold.



Robert Indiana (born 1928) creates very simple and bold images, such as his Cardinal Numbers. They include the number five.

THE CARDINAL NUMBERS | Robert Indiana | Pre-eminent figure of American art and pioneer of assemblage art, hard-edge abstraction, and pop art

Robert Indiana has also created paintings based on Demuth's painting I saw the Figure Five in Gold.

https://www.google.com/search?q=robert+Indiana+Demuth+5&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZjIDdq9LUAhUENz4KHX-tATkQ_AUIBigB&biw=1024&bih=691

So a flag honoring the Fifth Military District could be based on Demuth's painting or one of Robert Indiana's "five" themed paintings.

That would certainly be a very artistic design. Of course those paintings are too short horizontally for typical flags. So perhaps in the fly section (away from the pole) such a flag could have a blue field with images of five flag "tails" on it to lengthen it.







Or may a simpler design to represent the number five.

A flag of a single color with a large number 5 on it. Or a flag of a single color with a five sided heraldic cinquefoil on it.

https://www.google.com/search?q=cinquefoil+heraldry&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiXj-_gsNLUAhXCGT4KHbwYDYAQ_AUIBigB&biw=1024&bih=691

Another "five" design would be a flag with five horizontal or vertical stripes, red, white, blue, white, and red, or blue, white, red, white and blue.

Of course it is possible that the Fifth Military District had a flag, coat of arms, or seal of its own, and if it did that could be the basis of a flag to represent the Fifth Military District.

General Philip Sheridan was the first commander of the Fifth Military District, and Sheridan had personal flag during the Civil War.





As news of the end of the war reached the west, the rebel forces faded away. General Kirby Smith surrendered the Army of the Trans Mississippi on June 2, 1865. General Gordon Granger arrived in Galvaston and on June 19, 1865 and proclaimed General Order Number Three, announcing that the slaves were now free. the annual celebration of that day, often called "Juneteenth" spread from Texas to many other parts of the country.

And it seems there is a flag for the Juneteenth celebration.

https://www.google.com/search?q=juneteenth+flag&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjhsPTAtdLUAhVCID4KHSB6BFcQ_AUIBygC&biw=1024&bih=691#imgrc=R9TqOfsnMy5k5M:

There were five military units from Texas in the Union army, all cavalry units. They may have carried non standard flags part of the time. The government issued regimental standards for cavalry that were almost square, 27 x 29 inches, with dark blue fields and a bald eagle in natural colors with a shield on its breast with the US coat of arms, grasping 13 arrows and an olive branch in its claws, with a scroll in its beak with the national motto, a red scroll below the eagle with the regimental name written in gold, and stars above the head of the eagle.



Each company of cavalry carried a sallow tailed guidon, 27 41 inches. In 1861-62 they were red above and white below, with the white letters U.S. above and the company letter in red below. In 1862 guidons were redesigned as fork tailed versions of US flags, with the stars in the canton usually arranged in two concentric circles and with four stars in the corners.

http://jeffbridgman.com/inventory/index.php?page=out&id=2340

So it seems there are plenty of designs that could be used to show that modern residents of the state of Texas disapprove of the Confederacy and are glad that it was defeated.
 
Last edited:

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,425
Republika Srpska
#34
The thought has occurred to me that former rebel states might possibly want in the future to show their loyalty to the USA by adopting new state flags with a loyal meaning, or possibly the US government might encourage or force them to do so in the future.
I think the South is patriotic enough.
https://wallethub.com/edu/most-patriotic-states/13680/
Here, out of 10 most patriotic states, 4 are from the Old Confederacy.
 

MAGolding

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,895
Chalfont, Pennsylvania
#35
New state flags for Louisiana for modern Louisianans to shows that they are glad that the CSA was defeated.

In 1862 the West Gulf Blockading Squadron of the US Navy fought its way past the rebel forts at the mouth of the Mississippi River and sailed to New Orleans, forcing the city to surrender. David Glasgow Farragut was a Captain and a temporary flag officer as the commander of the squadron. Thus he should have flown a flag officer's flag on his flagship the USS Hartford.

The flag officers and later the rear admirals initially flew plain rectangular flags of solid blue, red, or white, again depending on seniority, but in 1865 a new issuance of Navy Regulations introduced the modern system of designating flag officers' ranks with flags showing the number of stars matching the insignia on their uniforms.
David Glasgow Farragut became the U.S. Navy's first vice admiral in 1864, but at the time his flag was simply a solid blue field flown at the head of the foremast.
So Farragut should have flown a solid blue, red, or white flag depending on his seniority as a flag officer in 1862. And that might make a new flag for Louisiana that would be very easy to make or draw

Or maybe a flag based on Farragut's coat of arms, red, with a gold horseshoe and nail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Farragut

Since Louisiana was part of the Fifth Military District during Reconstruction, any flag design referring to the number five that I discussed as a potential flag for Texas in my post number 31 above would also be suitable for Louisiana.

A number of Union regiments were raised in Louisiana. One regiment of heavy artillery, three batteries of light artillery, two regiments of cavalry, and sixteen regiments of infantry.

So thus their flag designs included national colors for artillery and Infantry, regimental colors for artillery, regimental colors for infantry, regimental standards for cavalry, and guidons for batteries of light artillery and companies of cavalry. And possibly one of those would make a good state flag for Louisiana.

As most of us know, companies were organized into regiments, regiments into brigades, brigades into divisions, divisions into corps, and corps into field armies. The main Union army command in Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama for most of the war was the Department and Army of the Gulf. At various times the Army of the Gulf included the Nineteenth Army Corps that besieged and captured Port Hudson, Louisiana, in 1863, and the Thirteenth and Sixteenth Army Corps that captured the port of Mobile, Alabama in 1865.

Thus the four headquarters flags of the Army of the Gulf, and the three corps should be more than enough to provide three flags for the states of Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama.

According to this chart of Union army corps flags, the Nineteenth army Corps had a blue forktailed headquarters flag with a white cross pattee, of the type with thick triangular arms that almost fill the square of the cross.



The Sixteenth Army Corps had a similar design, except that all the lines on the cross were curved.



I have been unable to find the designs of the headquarters flags of the Army of the Gulf and the Thirteenth Army Corps.

Thus it seems like the headquarters flag of the Nineteenth Army Corps might be suitable as a new flag for Louisiana, and the headquarters flag of the Sixteenth Army Corps might make a new flag for Alabama, according to the victories they won in those states.

Louisiana was ruled by the Kingdom of France for a century, when the royal government flag was white strewn with yellow fleur di lis and with the royal coat of arms in the center.



https://www.google.com/search?q=flag+of+kingdom+of+france&newwindow=1&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj3_JXHjtjUAhXJXD4KHaVfDvYQ_AUICigB&biw=1138&bih=768&dpr=1.13

So perhaps Louisiana could adopt a new flag that refers to the time of French rule, white strewn with tiny yellow images of a pelican in her piety and in the center the Louisiana coat of arms with a pelican in her piety. And perhaps there could be an optional version for use by Louisiana citizens that is plain white, very cheap to make, and identical to a flag of surrender that should have been the only Confederate flag ever.
 
Last edited:

MAGolding

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,895
Chalfont, Pennsylvania
#36
Nobody has come up with any suggestions recently, so here are a few:

For example, a southern state could adopt a plain white flag of surrender as the state flag, showing that Rebel surrender was good.



Or a southern state could adopt a flag showing the eagle in the achievement of arms of the United States breaking a chain connecting its shackled legs to symbolize freeing the nation from the threat of the expansion of slavery. A variant flag of Austria shows the eagle breaking the chain connecting its shackled legs to symbolize freedom from Nazi rule.





Or a new state flag of a southern state could show the eagle of the achievement of arms of the United states holding a chain connecting two empty shackles and ripping the chain apart to symbolize the national government freeing the slaves.

Or a southern state could adopt a new flag showing the eagle of the achievement of arms of the United states holding the flag used by the state during the Rebellion upside down in its claws.

Or a southern state could adopt a new flag showing the eagle of the achievement of arms of the United states holding the seal or coat of arms used by the state during the Rebellion upside down in its claws.

Or a southern state could adopt a flag showing the eagle of the achievement of arms of the United states ripping apart a rebel battle flag with its beak and talons.

Or a southern state could adopt a flag showing the eagle of the achievement of arms of the United states ripping apart a "bonnie blue flag that bears a single star" with its beak and talons.

Or a southern state could adopt a flag showing the eagle of the achievement of arms of the United states holding upside down staffs with upside down first Confederate flags ("the stars and bars") as a sign of victory over the Confederacy.

Or the same with upside down second Confederate flags ("the stainless banner"), or with third Confederate flags, or with Army of Northern Virginia battle flags, etc., or some combination of rebel flag designs.



Or, since the US government raised regiments from every rebel state except for Mississippi, any other former rebel state could adopt a new state flag based on the colors (flags) of a Union regiment raised in that state.

For example, such a flag could be a more or less exact copy of the national color (flag) or the regimental color (flag) of a Union regiment.





Of course since the standard national color (flag) and the standard regimental color (flag) of a Union regiment had standardized designs, only one southern state could use a national color and only one could use a regimental color without confusion.

Of course some regiments had non standard flags. For example, Missouri was not exactly a rebel state, but if the Missourians want to adopt a pro Union state flag I remember seeing a very beautiful regimental color that had a non standard design. It was from the Second Missouri Volunteer Cavalry or Merrill's Horse and was probably made for victory parades at the end of the war.

Or a new state flag could have a field of some color (shade or tint) with a representation of the national color (flag) or regimental color (flag) attached to its staff, and depicted either stiff and straight or flapping in the wind. A number of different states could use that design with different background colors (hues, tints, or shades) for each state.

Or a new state flag could have a field of some color (shade or tint) depicting two flag lances crossed in saltire, one with the national color (flag) and one with the regimental color (flag) of a loyal Union regiment from that state. A number of different states could use that design with different background colors (hues, tints, or shades) for each state.

Or a southern state could show that its citizens are glad for the Union victory 150 years ago by adopting a state flag based on the headquarters flag of a Union brigade, division, corps, or field army that helped conquer that state.

Most Union field armies were named after rivers, but there was the Army of Arkansas from July 27, 1863 to August 1, 1865. It helped to conquer a large part of Arkansas, so it's headquarters flag would make a good Unionist flag for the state of Arkansas. At one time the Army of Arkansas was also the Seventh Army Corps, so the headquarters flag of the Seventh Army Corps would also make a good loyal flag for Arkansas.

Since the US army had 27 corps (counting the two cavalry corps) and at least 19 field armies during the War it should be possible to find headquarters flags involved in the conquest of each of the 11 (or 13) Rebel states.

For the state of Virginia the headquarters flag, if any, of the Army of Virginia from June 16 to September 12, 1862 might do. But a headquarters flag of the Army of the Potomac seems more appropriate, especially the headquarters flag used in 1864 and 1865, a flag with such a splendid design that when General Grant first saw it he said: "What? Is imperial Caesar lurking about here?" according to legend. Some companies already make copies of it for Civil War enthusiasts, though I have seen the original flag and if I remember correctly it was far more beautiful than some illustrations of it you see on the internet.



A somewhat more gruesome design would be images of people maimed and killed because of the illegal existence of the Confederacy, and thus legally victims of crimes committed by the Confederacy. Such flags could honor kids - teens and younger children - victimized by the Rebellion.

For example, a North Carolina flag could have an image of 11-year-old Billy Shelton, killed in the Shelton Laurel Massacre. A South Caroline flag could have an image of the approximately 12-year-old rebel boy from South Carolina who lost his leg and it is strongly implied died soon after. And so on.
 
Last edited:
Sep 2017
21
South Carolina, USA
#37
Although not many US History classes teach about it, the founding document of the United States of America is the 1783 Treaty of Paris.

Not an exact quote, "the United States of America, seen as (listing of former colonies of GB) all free sovereign and independent States".

I do not think the USA or GB have made an attempt to retract this treaty. After being readmitted into the Union and the end of Reconstruction the States that were formerly those of the Confederacy have the same standing as the others. That includes choosing a State Flag without insulting suggestions from others.
 

MAGolding

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,895
Chalfont, Pennsylvania
#38
Here are more suggestions for flag designs for the 11 former Rebel states.

  1. Dark blue, the color of Union uniforms, with a bar of gray, the color of Rebel uniforms, below, to represent the Union army victorious over the Rebel army.
  2. Dark blue, the color of Union uniforms, with a bar of gray, the color of Rebel uniforms, below, to represent the Union army victorious over the Rebel army. The gray bar would have many red colored drop shapes - blood red drop shapes.
  3. The US achievement of arms with the bald eagle supporter. The eagle holds a lance with a flag in each claw, each lance upside down with an upside down First Confederate flag.
  4. The US achievement of arms with the bald eagle supporter. The eagle holds a lance with a flag in each claw, each lance upside down with an upside down Second Confederate flag.
  5. The US achievement of arms with the bald eagle supporter. The eagle holds a lance with a flag in each claw, each lance upside down with an upside down Third Confederate flag.
  6. The US achievement of arms with the bald eagle supporter. The eagle holds a lance with a flag in each claw, each lance upside down with an upside down Rebel battle flag.
  7. The US achievement of arms with the bald eagle supporter. The eagle holds a lance with a flag in each claw, each lance upside down, one with with an upside down First Confederate flag, and one with an upside down Rebel battle flag.
  8. The US achievement of arms with the bald eagle supporter. The eagle holds a lance with a flag in each claw, each lance upside down, one with with an upside down Second Confederate flag, and one with an upside down Rebel battle flag.
  9. The US achievement of arms with the bald eagle supporter. The eagle holds a lance with a flag in each claw, each lance upside down, one with with an upside down Third Confederate flag, and one with an upside down Rebel battle flag.
  10. The US achievement of arms with the bald eagle supporter. The eagle holds a lance with a flag in each claw, each lance upside down, one with with an upside down First Confederate flag, and one with an upside down state flag which that particular state in question used during the period (if there was any).
  11. The US achievement of arms with the bald eagle supporter. The eagle holds a lance with a flag in each claw, each lance upside down, one with with an upside down Second Confederate flag, and one with an upside down state flag which that particular state in question used during the period (if there was any).
  12. The US achievement of arms with the bald eagle supporter. The eagle holds a lance with a flag in each claw, each lance upside down, one with with an upside down Third Confederate flag, and one with an upside down state flag which that particular state in question used during the period (if there was any).
  13. The US achievement of arms with the bald eagle supporter. The eagle holds a lance with a flag in each claw, each lance upside down, one with with an upside down Rebel battle flag, and one with an upside down state flag which that particular state in question used during the period (if there was any).
  14. The US achievement of arms with the bald eagle supporter. The eagle holds a lance with a flag in each claw, each lance upside down, each lance with an upside down state flag which that particular state in question used during the period (if there was any).
Number 14 is my preferred suggestion for those Rebel states which used state flags during 1860-1865. Any rebel state which didn't have a state flag in 1860 to 1865 could be represented by any of number 3 to number 9.

What should be the back ground color of any flag design from number 3 to number 14? The great seal of the USA and the achievement of arms of the USA do not have a specified background color. So patterns 3 to 14 could use red, orange, yellow, green, blue, purple, white, brown, gray, or black as the background color - 9 choices. Or the field of the flag could be divided with two or more background colors. I suggest that designs number 1 and number 2 might make good choices for the background.

I can think of many more possible designs.
 

stevev

Ad Honorem
Apr 2017
3,454
Las Vegas, NV USA
#40
Why do US states need flags anyway? They should just use the US flag with the name of the state underneath. I don't even know what the flag of Nevada looks like. I was born in New York but I can't remember exactly what that looked like either.:think:

edit: Here's a flag I can respect! Note the symmetry of the background.

 
Last edited:
Status
Closed

Similar History Discussions