New thread on Aryans in Central Asia

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,827
New Delhi, India
Note: Since it was not possible to transfer the posts from the topic pre historic learned civilization, second urbanisation [no Aryan theory plz] by Ashoka Maurya because of forum software limitations, I have taken the liberty to create a new thread taking the unrelated posts from there to this new thread:

specul8:
Aupy ! ... you said the forbidden ' A word ' ! :angry:
I have been finding out a LOT about Central Asia lately . That is, more than I knew last time we talked . It appears a lot of my ' Specul8in ' was correct ! I'm just waiting for the right subject thread to come up . ;)
This is a goodie ;
Origins of the Bronze Age Oasis Civilization in Central Asia — Fredrik Talmage Hiebert | Harvard University Press
 
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Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,827
New Delhi, India
Aupmanyav :
USD 45. That decides it for me. I will wait for your comments. Is the information available anywhere else for free? I want things on platter free for me, like the Linux Mint that I am using now? I will search. :D
You re right, Specul8, when the Aryans moved West or North, they did not have the problem of arid expanses. When they moved East, it had to be from Oasis to Oasis - either a Branch from Samara/Sintshta or keeping close to the coast of Caspian Sea. That is perhaps how the Mittani reached Iraq. That is why the Eastern Movement was the last of all. Actually, we can see in a Google (or any other) map as to where the Aryans may have hopped from one oasis to another till they reached the hot land of India. Some adjusted, other returned to cooler mountains, as even a modern will do. In my case I wonder why my great-grandfather moved from Srinagar to Jodhpur and not to some place in Himachal Pradesh or Uttarkhand which have better climate.
One more thought. As you know Indian mythology divides the world known to them into seven islands (Dwipas), like Shaka Dwipa, Kumud Dwipa and Jambudwipa (which being India). I am intrigued by the similarity of 'dwipa' with 'Depe' or 'tepe', Yaz Depe, Ulugh Depe and others. Is is possible that the two words have the same derivation? We would describe an oasis like an island of greenery in the desert. Perhaps Aryans too used it in a similar sense.
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,827
New Delhi, India
Kamayani:
Then I guess we should stop bashing desi pseudo-scientists because Vedic people surely had 'vimanas' and 'missiles'. That's why we don't find their trails in any archeological sites. They were hovering over land of Bharata untill Sudas fired his guided missiles(that he acquired after performing 1000 years tapa from Indra) and evaporated all of Harappans and other Gangetic people.
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,827
New Delhi, India
Aupmanyav:
That is not correct. There presence is found in all oasis and river valley in Central Asia. Oxus, Juxartes, Murghab, Herat, etc. Aryans other than Gods did not have vimanas and missiles. They came later with Puranas.
 
Mar 2019
1,809
KL
in reference to specul8's central asian comment.

central asia was always in contact with the indians, latest research has uncovered indus valley civilization out posts in BMAC sites, archaeologists such as JM Kenoyer have indicated possibility of mauryan empire having extended to all the areas in central asia which were under indian influence.

research has also indicated the jiroft, hilmand, BMAC culture sites to have existed in the same areas where zoroasterianism seem to flourish, the site of hilmand river civilization was also the main centre of zoroasterianism, infact Haraxvati was the name of the region given to the eastern most areas of the persian empire. Haraxvati translates to sarasvati in the vedic tradition. research also indicates all these civilizations including hilmand and BMAC came to an end simultaneously with the Indus valley civilization.

1557050313973.png

these are the regions and their names durig vedic/mahabharatha era

1557050453076.png

research in the indus valley civilization has also indicated vigorous trade between the IVC and BMAC, artifacts of BMAC have been found in IVC and vice versa.
 
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Mar 2019
1,809
KL
here i have found some interesting observation related to the two areas named in the sumerian inscriptions related to india

  1. magan/makan
  2. meluhha
Magan (civilization) - Wikipedia
Maka (satrapy) - Wikipedia

again in reference to Haraxvati and Makan, the name has clearly survived.

according to varahamihira, an indian astronomer, the name of makan or magan is makara or the mythological sea mosnter of hindu mythology and hence indo aryan name Makran, so this tallies well with the names of bronze age into the very historic periods. makara is an indo aryan name.

According to Fleming, Maka, in the area of Gedrosia, can be considered as one of the Indian satrapies of the Achaemenid Empire
chach kingdom extension

1557052236881.png

secondly the melluha, coincidently, the exact name has been mentioned by chinese traders as a reference to malwa

1557051970609.png

hence all these names have persisted in relation to the bronze ages, and carried on till the historic periods.

regards
 
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Mar 2019
1,809
KL
there is one more name ''Aratta'' which survived and is mentioned in both sumerian and vedic texts.

Aratta is probably Haraxvati/ hilmand region or arachosia in western south asia.

regards
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,452
Australia
in reference to specul8's central asian comment.
What ? The comment that I have been reading more about it . Just a heads up A.M. I have some rather good resources, I dont seriously converse with people on the subject unless they have some proper background reading, at least start with this ;

1557092573554.png
UNESCO Digital Library

And now I think I will have to also include this present book , as it has a LOT of new info that we never had access to before, due to a barrier between the Russian research done in the area and the old and outdated info we had , this barrier has now been 'pierced' , and the new book ( although now a little old itself ) is a result of this interaction.

I will read and watch any info you put up however, so thanks for that .
central asia was always in contact with the indians,
Was it ? And what date do you give for the formations of 'The Indians ' ?

latest research has uncovered indus valley civilization out posts in BMAC sites,
Nah ! Thats old info . I have been going on about that since I first started posting here on this site . Of course they had sites and 'trading posts' there as they had to either ;

Go up into Central Asia to get access to the Oasis trading route that went from the Pamir Mountains, across the Oasis of the southern arid zone, through the Iranian Highlands and into Mesopotamia .. and further - Egypt and western Morocco even.

OR

the trade route branched off into the IV area and down to IVCs ports and went by sea to Mesopotamia by way of 'Dillman '

1557093315368.png

Note the type of 'cart' and the Bactrian camel .... the Bactrian camel domestication dates are insightful .

archaeologists such as JM Kenoyer have indicated possibility of mauryan empire having extended to all the areas in central asia which were under indian influence.
Yes, probably. Just as Iranian influence spread to ALL the areas in Central Asia that where under 'Iranian influence' . :)

Except where we have different peoples living together in relative harmony ..... :D thats what 'Central Asia civilisation' is about . It is being studied as a separate civilization, not an extension of 'Indian' or 'Iranian' , even if its early influences where mixed or migratory ... BUT which civilization does NOT have that in its history ?

research has also indicated the jiroft, hilmand, BMAC culture sites to have existed in the same areas where zoroasterianism seem to flourish, the site of hilmand river civilization was also the main centre of zoroasterianism, infact Haraxvati was the name of the region given to the eastern most areas of the persian empire. Haraxvati translates to sarasvati in the vedic tradition. research also indicates all these civilizations including hilmand and BMAC came to an end simultaneously with the Indus valley civilization.
This might be hard to swallow for a lot of people but - it seems that Vedanta and Zoroastrianism both developed in the Central Asia area, thats why we have traces of both there. And it seems the concept of 'Aryan' developed here too .

When they 'came to an end ' a lot of other things did too . It is interesting to look at that - what date do you give to IVC and BMAC 'ending' ?
View attachment 18844

these are the regions and their names durig vedic/mahabharatha era

View attachment 18845

research in the indus valley civilization has also indicated vigorous trade between the IVC and BMAC, artifacts of BMAC have been found in IVC and vice versa.
Yeah , but much more than that and through a larger area .... look into the precious metal and stones trade - Especially Lapis Lazuli . And the development and spread of metallurgy .

_ and I am prone to mock political arguments - I dont have a horse in this race , I am neither Indian or Iranian .
 
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Mar 2019
1,809
KL
This might be hard to swallow for a lot of people but - it seems that Vedanta and Zoroastrianism both developed in the Central Asia area, thats why we have traces of both there. And it seems the concept of 'Aryan' developed here too .

When they 'came to an end ' a lot of other things did too . It is interesting to look at that - what date do you give to IVC and BMAC 'ending' ?
there is nothing hard to swallow at all, the bronze age civilizations of BMAC, hilmand and jiroft gave birth to zoroasterianism as indicated, and the indus valley civilization gave birth to vedic religions. the areas of vedic texts clearly match with the IVC, while the avesta texts match with the the BMAC and especially hilmand region cultures.

ultimately the parent religion was always vedic religion which gave birth to zoroasterianism and arouse in the area presently called haryana which moved westward, established influence in central asia and gave birth to zoroasterian religion as indicated by the IVC out posts in the BMAC areas. The presence of gandhara and kambhoja in central asia further provides the evidence of how it could have been possible

regards
 
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specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,452
Australia
there is nothing hard to swallow at all, the bronze age civilizations of BMAC, hilmand and jiroft gave birth to zoroasterianism as indicated, and the indus valley civilization gave birth to vedic religions. the areas of vedic texts clearly match with the IVC, while the avesta texts match with the the BMAC and especially hilmand region cultures.
What I meant was, the idea that both Zoroastrianism and Vedanta developed in the BMAC would be hard to swallow , for some ;)

If I may 'speculate' as you did ; First, there was 'Aryan religion' , then 'divisions' arose and new cultures formed , moving to new locations and accretion and development took place . I am sure that the forms of 'Vedic religion' known today did originate in India . Thats why the Vedic texts match the IVC and the Zoroastrian ones match the BMAC ... as some say .

Unfortunately, although this 'early Aryan religion' is mentioned in Avesta , we have little knowledge actually about it , only reference to it.


ultimately the parent religion was always vedic religion which gave birth to zoroasterianism and arouse in the area presently called haryana which moved westward, established influence in central asia and gave birth to zoroasterian religion as indicated by the IVC out posts in the BMAC areas. The presence of gandhara and kambhoja in central asia further provides the evidence of how it could have been possible

regards
The thing is , certain places in Central Asia where chuggng i along fine with a civilisation, agriculture, irrigation, trade network , etc . before IVC. IVC tapped into that network . But this does not mean that BMAC developed the IVC area / cultures .

Look into Sarazm , consider the early archeology in Balochisatn is connected to the Iranian Plateau as well, that htere seems 'proto-Elemite' influence in early BMAC and that " Balochistan occupies the very southeastern-most portion of the Iranian Plateau, the setting for the earliest known farming settlements in the pre-Indus Valley Civilisation era " .

Balochistan, Pakistan - Wikipedia