New thread on Aryans in Central Asia

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,351
Australia
while Aryans who entered into India were certainly mixture of these groups their ancestral groups were from volga basin and they most likely looked like ancient people of volga basin.
So, although you acknowledge they had mixed ancestry you are claiming all that mixed ancestry came from the Volga Basin. That must mean you are also claiming that the BMAC culture and people's where from the Volga Basin.

That is not what I have been reading .... from numerous sources.
 
Warli - Wikipedia

The Warlis or Varlis are an indigenous tribe or Adivasis, living in mountainous as well as coastal areas of Maharashtra-Gujarat border and surrounding areas. They have their own animistic beliefs, life, customs and traditions, as a result of acculturation they have adopted many Hindu beliefs. The Warlis speak an unwritten Varli language which belong to the southern zone of the Indo-Aryan languages.
so even indo aryan are adivasis, hmm, i thought indo aryans came with vedic religion

regards
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,351
Australia
Yes, the Aryans were a branch of the IE people.
You are confused between the two migrations. 1. The older one, perhaps 12,000 years ago to escape the ice-age which took them to Kurgan region and Volga delta, 2. The later migration to North/East - Samara/Sintashta/Aral, that was some 3-2,000 years ago.
No mostly. IE (now Aryans) interacted with all people they encountered, Mesopotamians (Mittani), Indians and Iranians.
You are fudging and trying to obfuscate ..... again !

Just because some IE people became Aryans ( "Aryans where a branch of IE people') does not mean that IE people where always Aryans .

Many sources indicate the concept of Aryan as unique and starting in Central Asia, from a specific blending of the northern cultures coming into Central Asia, blending with the ones established there in the south . There is no record of Aryans before that, and yes IE people did interact with others in various places they went ... of course ! :rolleyes: ... but those interactions did not turn them into Aryans , did they ? The interactions with the BMAC culture created the ' 'Rig Vedic Tribes' which moved into IV ( as well as other groups who moved elsewhere ) .

Thats what the map above shows that I was commenting on.

If Aryans came from either of the migrations you mention ( in 1. and 2. above ) then you should be able to quote source material showing how they considered themselves Aryan .


Since you are fond of quoting Wiki, I will do it for you ;

" "Aryan" (/ˈɛəriən/)[1] has as its root a term that was used as a self-designation by Indo-Iranian people.[note 1] The term was used by the Indic people of the Vedic period in India as an ethnic label for themselves and to refer to the noble class as well as the geographic region known as Āryāvarta, where Indo-Aryan culture is based.[2][3] The closely related Iranian people also used the term as an ethnic label for themselves in the Avesta scriptures, and the word forms the etymological source of the country name Iran.[4][5][6][7] It was believed in the 19th century that Aryan was also a self-designation used by all Proto-Indo-Europeans, a theory that has now been abandoned.[8] Scholars point out that, even in ancient times, the idea of being an "Aryan" was religious, cultural and linguistic, not racial "


Aryan - Wikipedia

(my emphasis )
 
Apr 2019
406
India
"
Many sources indicate the concept of Aryan as unique and starting in Central Asia, from a specific blending of the northern cultures coming into Central Asia, blending with the ones established there in the south
No sign of entrance of alien culture in S Asia in that time frame !
How many times do I've to remind this to you people.
giphy.gif
IVC sites were occupied even in 1300 BC.
 

Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,544
USA
That was prior to 2,000 BCE. That establishes the antiquity of Taittiriya Samhita (Tilak differed here from the Indologists like Max Muller who claimed the 1,500 BCE date for Vedas).
As per archaeology of the region, Aryans probably came to India around 1,500 BCE. That is the date of Yaz Depe culture. They could not have come much earlier than that. Secondly, the beginning of the wet season around Autumnal equinox, which happens in Central Asia and not in India.
You have to connect one fact with another in historical research.

"The Yaz culture (named after the type site Yaz-depe, Yaz Depe, or Yaz Tepe, near Baýramaly, Turkmenistan, was an early Iron Age culture of Margiana, Bactria and Sogdia (ca. 1500–500 BC)."
Yaz culture - Wikipedia

OK, Taittiriya Samhita is before 2000 BCE, and that makes Rig Veda Samhita much older. The rest of the archaeological balderdash can safely be ignored. We certainly know that Rig Veda was composed in Indian Subcontinent as the geography, flora and fauna in the hymns indicate. You may fancy Vedic settlements even in South America but I call it "nonsense".
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,652
New Delhi, India
You are fudging and trying to obfuscate .. again ! Just because some IE people became Aryans ("Aryans where a branch of IE people') does not mean that IE people where always Aryans .

If Aryans came from either of the migrations you mention ( in 1. and 2. above ) then you should be able to quote source material showing how they considered themselves Aryan.
I do not think I am fudging anything. The fact that Greeks carried with them the name (Ionians/Ayans/Aryans) might be indicating that IE knew themselves as 'Aryans". I do not accept that the word 'Aryan' was limited to Indo-Iranians. The word was known in many cultures:

"The Proto-Indo-Iranian term is hypothesized to have proto-Indo-European origins, while according to Szemerényi it is probably a Near-Eastern loanword from the Ugaritic ary, kinsmen. It has been postulated the Proto-Indo-European root word is *haerós with the meanings "members of one's own (ethnic) group, peer, freeman" as well as the Indo-Iranian meaning of Aryan. Derived from it were words like:
  • the Hittite prefix arā- meaning member of one's own group, peer, companion and friend;
  • Old Irish aire, meaning "freeman" and "noble"
  • Gaulish personal names with Ario-
  • Avestan airya- meaning Aryan, Iranian in the larger sense
  • Old Indic ari- meaning attached to, faithful, devoted person and kinsman
  • Old Indic aryá- meaning kind, favourable, attached to and devoted
  • Old Indic árya- meaning Aryan, faithful to the Vedic religion.
The word *haerós (Aup.: probably the origin of the word 'Heroes') itself is believed to have come from the root *haer- meaning "put together". The original meaning in Proto-Indo-European had a clear emphasis on the "in-group status" as distinguished from that of outsiders, particularly those captured and incorporated into the group as slaves. While in Anatolia, the base word has come to emphasize personal relationship, in Indo-Iranian the word has taken a more ethnic meaning."
Aryan - Wikipedia
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,652
New Delhi, India
OK, Taittiriya Samhita is before 2000 BCE, and that makes Rig Veda Samhita much older. The rest of the archaeological balderdash can safely be ignored.
We certainly know that Rig Veda was composed in Indian Subcontinent as the geography, flora and fauna in the hymns indicate. You may fancy Vedic settlements even in South America but I call it "nonsense".
While I agree to your first statement. Following Tilak, I think RigVeda goes to ice-age period. But it it was composed in India, it should not have mentioned: 1. 30-day dawns, 2. Seven suns and the eighth born unformed, 3. Navagwahas and Dashagwahas (priests completing their sacrificial cycle in nine or ten months) and 4. 'Ati-Ratra' (Greater Night), still forming a part of Hindu rituals.

I may also add that no auspicious marriage dates are available in August and September 2019 (Tara dooba). Taking into consideration the slippage of seasons due to precession of equinox, that probably indicates the Arctic night period, when our Aryan forefathers too considered it inauspicious. Grandpa Bhishma waited for the month of Magha to come before he chose to die. And Ahur Mazda asked his people to preserve the body of the dead in a ditch before continuing the death rights when spring came. Of course, the seasons have changed since then. But, unfortunately, all these things do not matter to OIT people. You need to read and understand Tilak.
 
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specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,351
Australia
No sign of entrance of alien culture in S Asia in that time frame !
How many times do I've to remind this to you people.
View attachment 19274
IVC sites were occupied even in 1300 BC.
Probably as many times as I have to remind you that I am NOT talking about S Asia . The reason YOU PEOPLE keep getting confused is the way you swap around terms as it suits you ; I comment on a map some other Indian posted showing ingress of people into Indus Valley and establishing 'Rig Vedic' tribes and you complain about lack of evidence of ingress into South Asia . .... whatever .

Only result will be ... you are going t get a very sore forehead ,
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,351
Australia
I do not think I am fudging anything. The fact that Greeks carried with them the name (Ionians/Ayans/Aryans) might be indicating that IE knew themselves as 'Aryans". I do not accept that the word 'Aryan' was limited to Indo-Iranians. The word was known in many cultures:

"The Proto-Indo-Iranian term is hypothesized to have proto-Indo-European origins, while according to Szemerényi it is probably a Near-Eastern loanword from the Ugaritic ary, kinsmen. It has been postulated the Proto-Indo-European root word is *haerós with the meanings "members of one's own (ethnic) group, peer, freeman" as well as the Indo-Iranian meaning of Aryan. Derived from it were words like:
  • the Hittite prefix arā- meaning member of one's own group, peer, companion and friend;
  • Old Irish aire, meaning "freeman" and "noble"
  • Gaulish personal names with Ario-
  • Avestan airya- meaning Aryan, Iranian in the larger sense
  • Old Indic ari- meaning attached to, faithful, devoted person and kinsman
  • Old Indic aryá- meaning kind, favourable, attached to and devoted
  • Old Indic árya- meaning Aryan, faithful to the Vedic religion.
The word *haerós (Aup.: probably the origin of the word 'Heroes') itself is believed to have come from the root *haer- meaning "put together". The original meaning in Proto-Indo-European had a clear emphasis on the "in-group status" as distinguished from that of outsiders, particularly those captured and incorporated into the group as slaves. While in Anatolia, the base word has come to emphasize personal relationship, in Indo-Iranian the word has taken a more ethnic meaning."
Aryan - Wikipedia
So , all you could come with is a 'might be ' for Ionian , which ' might be ' indicating they knew themselves as Aryan ... and that isnt fudging ?

I would say it indicates that they knew themselves as Ionians . Exponentially, the more 'might be' s that are added to a concept they less likely it is . The info I offered was not based on 'might be ' this multiplied by 'might be ' that .

Of course the word was known in many cultures as people knew who Aryans where when they came into contact with them . You dont have to be one to have the word in your language .

Then .... you add to your speculative linguistic algebra equation, a 'probably' , and then a ' postulated ' . Then we have some diversion or something into the term ' haeros' ... for some reason ?

And to top it all off it ends with what I was saying all along ; ' in Indo-Iranian the word has taken a more ethnic meaning ' .

I would call that 'fudging' . .... or collating maybes , in an attempt to support 'some other idea'. But then again it ends with a quote that suppports what I was saying .

So we will call it 'confused fudging '

:)
 

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