New thread on Aryans in Central Asia

Mar 2019
1,809
KL
Look into Sarazm , consider the early archeology in Balochisatn is connected to the Iranian Plateau as well, that htere seems 'proto-Elemite' influence in early BMAC and that " Balochistan occupies the very southeastern-most portion of the Iranian Plateau, the setting for the earliest known farming settlements in the pre-Indus Valley Civilisation era " .
i dont want to go into that department, even though the notion of balochistan being the origin of farming in IVC or india has been totally debunked, there are sites like bhirrana etc which have been dated earlier than balochistan sites like mehrgarh.

i dont wanna go into this because as i have already stated, the balochistan part was always under the indian influence, and the mehrgarh site has nothing to do with the iranian plateau to begin with, it forms part of the indus valley geographical area as well if you carefully look at the balochistn map.

secondly, farming began in india at isolated locations, three of them atleast have been identified, one in north india where rice was domesticated, one at IVC and one in southern india.

im not sure if you mean that BMAC precedes the IVC in form of agriculture, civilization, trade network etc, i have not come across such notion, if anything it is BMAC which comes later than IVC and not vise versa.

The Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex (short BMAC), also known as the Oxus civilization, is the modern archaeological designation for a Bronze Age civilization of Central Asia, dated to c. 2400–1600 BC

Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex - Wikipedia
IVC is atleast dated between 3300-1300 BC, there maybe even further revision and push back as the archaeologists dig sites like mohenjo daro deeper and further back in time.

If I may 'speculate' as you did ; First, there was 'Aryan religion' , then 'divisions' arose and new cultures formed , moving to new locations and accretion and development took place . I am sure that the forms of 'Vedic religion' known today did originate in India . Thats why the Vedic texts match the IVC and the Zoroastrian ones match the BMAC ... as some say .

Unfortunately, although this 'early Aryan religion' is mentioned in Avesta , we have little knowledge actually about it , only reference to it.
im not sure why are you refering to vedanta and not vedic religion?

vedic religion is a parent religion since zoroasterianism is an innovation and also doesnt preserve its old language form as it was corrupted and translated into pehlavi during sassanid periods, and zoroasterianism is a later innovation, and since geography of vedic texts indicate IVC area its highly probable that it went from IVC and got innovated in the form of zoroasterianism after following vedic religion for some periods. archaeology of the IVC and indian vedic history of gandharas and kambhojas do prove this notion. other evidences being the mittani indo aryan names. somply meaning vedic texts are dated earlier than avestan texts so in no way, avestan is referring to ''Aryan religion'' which predates the vedic one.

regards
 
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specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,597
Australia
The references to the places I named are not BMAC as such but they are studied as possible early developments that BMAC evolved out of, as well as other influences. There where settlements at earlier times than BMAC and also trade networks , then the culture evolved and developed , into the BMAC that we have the fantastic archaeological record of - we could nearly say it hit a 'golden age' .

Perhaps the similar happened in Indus Valley. . The same probably happened with IVC - thats why older finds will turn up .

'Standard view' is ;

" The Bactria-Margiana complex has attracted attention as a candidate for those looking for the material counterparts to the Indo-Iranians (Aryans), a major linguistic branch that split off from the Proto-Indo-Europeans. Sarianidi himself advocates identifying the complex as Indo-Iranian, describing it as the result of a migration from southwestern Iran. Bactria–Margiana material has been found at Susa, Shahdad, and Tepe Yahya in Iran, but Lamberg-Karlovsky does not see this as evidence that the complex originated in southeastern Iran. "The limited materials of this complex are intrusive in each of the sites on the Iranian Plateau as they are in sites of the Arabian peninsula."[13]

A significant section of the archaeologists are more inclined to see the culture as begun by farmers in the Near Eastern Neolithic tradition, but infiltrated by Indo-Iranian speakers from the Andronovo culture in its late phase, creating a hybrid. In this perspective, Proto-Indo-Aryan developed within the composite culture before moving south into the Indian subcontinent.[18] As James P. Mallory phrased it:


It has become increasingly clear that if one wishes to argue for Indo-Iranian migrations from the steppe lands south into the historical seats of the Iranians and Indo-Aryans that these steppe cultures were transformed as they passed through a membrane of Central Asian urbanism. The fact that typical steppe wares are found on BMAC sites and that intrusive BMAC material is subsequently found further to the south in Iran, Afghanistan, Nepal, India and Pakistan, may suggest then the subsequent movement of Indo-Iranian-speakers after they had adopted the culture of the BMAC.[20]
....... < genetic info removed > ...... "

( my emphasis)

Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex - Wikipedia

I used the term Vedanta like I use the term Avestan - early forms of 'Aryan religion' which relates more to their earlier texts and Zoroastrianism

and 'Hinduism' or Vedic Religion when refir ering to later dvelopments in differnent regions that incorporated local influence and the latter texts.

I realise Zoroaster is a reformer , its fairly obvious from the texts , similar forms of that religion existed before him .
 
Mar 2019
1,809
KL
It has become increasingly clear that if one wishes to argue for Indo-Iranian migrations from the steppe lands south into the historical seats of the Iranians and Indo-Aryans that these steppe cultures were transformed as they passed through a membrane of Central Asian urbanism. The fact that typical steppe wares are found on BMAC sites and that intrusive BMAC material is subsequently found further to the south in Iran, Afghanistan, Nepal, India and Pakistan, may suggest then the subsequent movement of Indo-Iranian-speakers after they had adopted the culture of the BMAC
that is a fallacy, as i have already stated there has been evidence of trade between BMAC and IVC, so stuff from IVC has been found in BMAC and vice versa some archaeologists even opine stuff of BMAC occurring in arabia due to trade. in regards to pottery, no pottery culture of central asia has to date been observed in south asia and vice versa.

the notion that religions moved with genes, migrations, again, is a very falsifying info, since, we have example of buddhism moving without any material culture, except ofcourse their idols and scripts etc and adapting into local culture without need for any migrations.

regards
 
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specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,597
Australia
that is a fallacy, as i have already stated there has been evidence of trade between BMAC and IVC, so stuff from IVC has been found in BMAC and vice versa some archaeologists even opine stuff of BMAC occurring in arabia due to trade. in regards to pottery, no pottery culture of central asia has to date been observed in south asia and vice versa.
And as I have been stating , in other threads , long before you came here ; there has been evidence of trade between BMAC and IVC ( all I did was postulate a simpler trade network before BMAC and IVC 'peaks' that developed more ... up untll; the 'collapse' ) . And with that trade , well of course you are going to find evidence of trade between two areas when they had trading . I am not sure what point you are trying to make and how it negates the passage you didnt like or make it " a fallacy " ?

Of course " stuff from IVC has been found in BMAC " How did IVC and BMAC trade work if IVC NOT send 'stuff' there .?

Do you know how trade works ?

Regarding your other points; BMAC goods in Arabia - I mentioned a sea route via IVC, so of course it would have hugged the coast and made stops, probably crossing to Africa at the narrowest section . No CA pottery in SEA ? - Neither I nor Wikipadia article claims BMAC traded with SEA .

So your points about it being a 'fallacy' seem rather confused .


the notion that religions moved with genes, migrations, again, is a very falsifying info, since, we have example of buddhism moving without any material culture, except ofcourse their idols and scripts etc and adapting into local culture without need for any migrations.

regards

And that is a notion I never suggested ! Did 'King Vishtaspa ' have Zoroaster's 'genes' ?

Does a persons religion go with them when they migrate , ypu say it is falsifying info ... maybe you should check with the Parsee's , the Muslim immigrants to Australia and all those people that first moved to America .. and everywhere else .

AND of course this isnt necessary , as well as all that we have spread by 'misonaries' , as in the case of Buddhism, and other religions. Trade can also spread religion .... even 'class snobbyness ' associated with trade and Empire

But, to understand how it DID spread, we need to take other factors into account - not just assume it was 'like Buddhism' .

Your post reads like you DO 'have a horse in this race ' . ;)
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,898
New Delhi, India
there is one more name ''Aratta'' which survived and is mentioned in both sumerian and vedic texts. Aratta is probably Haraxvati/ hilmand region or arachosia in western south asia.
I conflate 'aratta' with 'jat'. They were probably from Mekran/Sistan.
What I meant was, the idea that both Zoroastrianism and Vedanta developed in the BMAC would be hard to swallow , for some ;)
Don't say 'Vedanta'. That, the various philosophies, developed in India because of interaction between the Aryans and the indigenous people. Say Vedas.
If I may 'speculate' as you did; First, there was 'Aryan religion' , then 'divisions' arose and new cultures formed, moving to new locations and accretion and development took place. I am sure that the forms of 'Vedic religion' known today did originate in India. That is why the Vedic texts match the IVC and the Zoroastrian ones match the BMAC ... as some say .
IVC is much older than BMAC. The two people did not have any contact untill after the coming of Aryans in India. There are no IVC texts to match with Vedas. IVC was certainly in contact with Sumer, Mesopotamia and as you said Dilmun (Bahrein/Qatar in the Gulf). What happened was that the Aryans came to India and after their leaving, Zoroaster came up and changed the Vedic religion in that region to his 'One God' religion. Also re-wrote the Gathas and the Yasnas.
 
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specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,597
Australia
.....IVC is much older than BMAC. The two people did not have any contact untill after the coming of Aryans in India. ....
Yes . I am not claiming that it isnt older , if you read carefully I was responding to a particular passage in another's post and I qualified that " If I may speculate as you did " .

My interest here isnt so much the religion but the development of trade routes in souther Central Asia -

1557210262067.png

The reason I wrote " That is why the Vedic texts match the IVC and the Zoroastrian ones match the BMAC ... as some say . " ( I should have added ;) ) is because I was trying to avoid that old 'rivers and landscape argument ' with A. M. < sigh >

Oh well, you can bend over backwards ..... but you cant please everyone .

The dates and details I am interested in are not the set dates for BMAC or IVC but for indications of things in place and developing earlier that made the trade route possible and successful and , I think, contributed to both IVC and BMAC .

"In the extreme south, in Turkmenistan, beginning in the fifth millennium B.C., the development of the most ancient farming culture ... was already under way . "

The Prehistory of the Silk Road on JSTOR

"The Chalcolithic Anau culture dates back to 4500 BC .... Anau was a stopping point along the famous ancient Silk Road. Fine painted potteries are found here. " Pottery similar to that of Anau (the earliest Anau IA phase) has been found as far as Shir Ashian Tepe in the Semnan Province of Iran "

Anau, Turkmenistan - Wikipedia

As far as dates go concerning this route ; certain sections of the future Silk Road, along which spread people, objects,and ideas, commenced at least as long ago as the latter half of the third millennium B.C. and considerably intensified in the second millennium B.C.

My interest originally started when I wondered how ancient Egypt got Lapis lazuli ( see map above ) .

I would like to know more about Ur, its seafaring and boats .


Anyone know what the most recent info on that is ?
 
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Apr 2019
410
India
I conflate 'aratta' with 'jat'. They were probably from Mekran/Sistan.Don't say 'Vedanta'. That, the various philosophies, developed in India because of interaction between the Aryans and the indigenous people. Say Vedas.IVC is much older than BMAC. The two people did not have any contact untill after the coming of Aryans in India. There are no IVC texts to match with Vedas. IVC was certainly in contact with Sumer, Mesopotamia and as you said Dilmun (Bahrein/Qatar in the Gulf). What happened was that the Aryans came to India and after their leaving, Zoroaster came up and changed the Vedic religion in that region to his 'One God' religion. Also re-wrote the Gathas and the Yasnas.
If Vedas was written after 'Aryan' came in contact with IVC then why are astronomical references in Vedas much older? Where was river Saraswati?
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,898
New Delhi, India
The map does not show any route between Seistan/Mekran/Gedrosia/Ariana etc. (over Suleiman and Kirthar Mountains). I think that is wrong. That was the region inhabited by Aryans and they were routinely cross-crossing it to and from India. That is the way, Mesopotamian and Iranian influence might have come into India before (Mehrgarh)/during and after IVC.

BTW, Anau and Jeitun people were not Indo-Europeans. Indo-Europeans did not move east till much later.
 
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Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,898
New Delhi, India
If Vedas was written after 'Aryan' came in contact with IVC then why are astronomical references in Vedas much older? Where was river Saraswati?
I said 'Vedanta' philosophies developed much later after Aryans interacted with Indigenous people. The PIE/Indo-Europeans perhaps had their songs even prior to ice-age. During the whole period the old hymns were continuously lost and new hymns were written or re-written according to the understanding of the people at that time. The references to Orion on the day of vernal euinox are very clear (4-2,000 BCE), not so the references to Punarvas/Aditi (prior to 4,000 BCE). However, 30 day Ushas (1), two-months night (2), eight suns (3) and priests who completed their sattra in nine or ten months (4) point to an even earlier period, that in the Arctic region.