New thread on Aryans in Central Asia

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,597
Australia
The map does not show any route between Seistan/Mekran/Gedrosia/Ariana etc. (over Suleiman and Kirthar Mountains). I think that is wrong
I agree - to an extent . But look at the arrows , they seem to radiate OUT FROM Ur. Does this suggest Ur regulated / initiated the trading ( ie. they had the tech , boats, etc . ) ?

I think there would have been a connection, as you say below, but I need to find out more . The book cited above on the ancient silk route is probably my next read .


1557268546643.png

. That was the region inhabited by Aryans and they were routinely cross-crossing it to and from India. That is the way, Mesopotamian and Iranian influence might have come into India before (Mehrgarh)/during and after IVC.
Yes, possibly the Iranian influence, but I am wondering about 'Mesopotamian influence ' and if it came direct by sea ?

BTW, Anau and Jeitun people were not Indo-Europeans. Indo-Europeans did not move east till much later.
yes, that is right - remember how in other thread (some time back) I was saying how central Asia civilisation developed (in south CE) before IE ingress ? That civilisation changed that particular ingress of IE .
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,898
New Delhi, India
Where was river Saraswati?
We know for sure that Arghandab, which is a tributary of River Helmand near Lashkargah/Kandhar was know as Saraswati (Old Persian: Harauvatiš, Avestan: Haraxvaitī- (whose -axva- is typical non-Avestan) - Wikipedia.
I have found two more Sari-Sus, one in Turkmenistan and the other in Kazakhistan. Sari-su means the 'golden river' in their language.
BTW, check Wikipedia Arachosia and you get: "The theory of Croatian origin traces the origin of the Croats to the area of Arachosia. This connection was at first drawn due to the similarity of Croatian (Croatia - Croatian: Hrvatska, Croats - Croatian: Hrvati / Čakavian dialect: Harvati / Kajkavian dialect: Horvati) and Arachosian name, but other researches indicate that there are also linguistic, cultural, agrobiological and genetic ties."
It is not that Croatian origins are in Iran. It is simply that IE people spread from somewhere near Astrakhan to Croatia as well as Iran and India.
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,898
New Delhi, India
I used the term Vedanta like I use the term Avestan - early forms of 'Aryan religion' which relates more to their earlier texts and Zoroastrianism
and 'Hinduism' or Vedic Religion when referring to later developments in different regions that incorporated local influence and the latter texts.

I realize Zoroaster is a reformer, its fairly obvious from the texts, similar forms of that religion existed before him .
That IMHO, is not correct. Vedas and Vedic religion is one part and Vedanta and Hinduism is the other part.
I would not call Zoroaster a reformer. He was among the first to be bitten by the 'One God' bug. It has been the same with Akhenaten, Moses, Jesus, Mohammad, Joseph Smith, Bahaullah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and others who did not have much success. As you know, one of the first things that he asked King Vistaspa to do was to kill his opponents, the Kavis. It is just that one set of priests was replaced by another.
 
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specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,597
Australia
Well ............. he ' reformed' ' the Kavis ;)

- I know YOU would not call him a reformer ... but I would . -

" Iranian prophet and religious reformer Zarathustra ... "

Zarathustra | Iranian prophet

" ... is thought by many modern historians to have been a reformer of the polytheistic Iranian religion "

Zoroastrianism - Wikipedia


" Zoroastrianism, the dominant pre-Islamic religious tradition of the Iranian peoples, was founded by the prophetic reformer Zoroaster ... "

https://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/exhibit/religion/zoroastrianism/essay.html

" Did the Mazdayasna Religion Precede Zarathushtra?

Since, as we have just observed, both the pre- and post- Zoroastrian religions are called Mazdayasni, many authors have assumed that Zarathushtra was a reformer of a Mazdayasni religion that predated him, rather than the founder of a new religion. .... '

Pre-Zoroastrian Aryan Religions & Religious Wars. Page 1
 
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Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,898
New Delhi, India
But *Dyḗus Pḥatḗr was not the only God. Neither for the Vedics, nor for the Greeks. The keeper of the law was his son, Varuna among Vedics and Ouranos among the Greeks - same God.
 
Mar 2019
1,809
KL
monotheism has always been part of the indic religion, whether it be vedic religion or later religions. to claim zoroasterianism was the first monotheistic religion is i think completely false, first of all we dont know the date of zoroasterianism, we dont know when this religion actually took shape some scholars date it to 500 BC some in the second mil BC. Religions such as krishna religion is a monotheistic religion, even shivaism and vishnuism is also monotheistic religions or rather sects of wider hinduism. some sects worshipped surya an hence monotheistic religion. There were similar sects for instance in ancient egypt which glorified only one god, horus, it is also debated if zoroasterianism is truely monotheistic religion because we do see various temples for other divinities and not just fire temples

the concept of brahman itself is also probably monotheistic concept.

the distinction of good vs evil is also not zoroasterianism limited concept, we do find such concepts also in for instance taoism, the tao sign yin and yang itself indicates good and evil, its mostly a universal concept the distinction and varying in degrees can be debated that is which religion has made more distinction in regards to this concept

regards
 
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Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,626
USA
I conflate 'aratta' with 'jat'. They were probably from Mekran/Sistan.Don't say 'Vedanta'. That, the various philosophies, developed in India because of interaction between the Aryans and the indigenous people. Say Vedas.IVC is much older than BMAC. The two people did not have any contact untill after the coming of Aryans in India. There are no IVC texts to match with Vedas. IVC was certainly in contact with Sumer, Mesopotamia and as you said Dilmun (Bahrein/Qatar in the Gulf). What happened was that the Aryans came to India and after their leaving, Zoroaster came up and changed the Vedic religion in that region to his 'One God' religion. Also re-wrote the Gathas and the Yasnas.
You neither know the Vedas nor the Vedanta, much less the IVC script. The rest of your stuff have simply no basis. Nobody rewrote any Gatha or Yasna for they were none in Vedas. Don't keep talking about things that you simply fantasize, for the reality is something different.
 

Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,626
USA
If Vedas was written after 'Aryan' came in contact with IVC then why are astronomical references in Vedas much older? Where was river Saraswati?
Yes, for this poster, Rig Veda was composed part along with polar bears and part along with peacocks:) And for him, the Taittariya Samhita of Krishna Yajurveda was composed in between the two parts of Rig Veda! There is no end to his delusion.