No other man on the Moon ...

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,235
Italy, Lago Maggiore
I am no expert on these field but i am aware that the lowgravity seemed to be the biggest thread for settlers on the mars .All other threats you have listed human can protect themself by sophisticated Marsbases.But it is possible to simulate the gravity on earth with a machine but this would cost also an amount of money.
There is a solution, but it's really particular and it requires great investments.

To enter into details, Mars offers a potential natural artificial [!!! curious definition!] satellite where to create a human settlement with dimensions comparable to the ones of a great city.

Phobos. Excavating it we could realize an artificial space station in a natural satellite. Deimos would be more challenging.

But this is science fiction: reality is that robotic industrial settlements on Martian surface can be "aided" by human crews organized to spend on Mars no mode than 4 - 6 months [6 months only in case of emergency or extraordinary conditions].
 
Oct 2017
356
America ??
I’ve been thinking, shouldn’t it be logical that people shouldn’t be sent to mars before people have already spent much time on & familiar with the moon? The movie Ad Astra was more realistic with that aspect. It’s trying to run before learning to walk in a new area.
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,235
Italy, Lago Maggiore
I’ve been thinking, shouldn’t it be logical that people shouldn’t be sent to mars before people have already spent much time on & familiar with the moon? The movie Ad Astra was more realistic with that aspect. It’s trying to run before learning to walk in a new area.
It's evident that the Moon can be the door to the Solar System. Anyway its even lower gravity would be a real problem to face. So near to Earth our satellite could host a group of orbital stations with a system to imitate a decent gravity [rotating, just to say ...]. This could allow a limited population to live there working on the surface in industrial quarters and mines.
 
Nov 2019
48
Germany
I’ve been thinking, shouldn’t it be logical that people shouldn’t be sent to mars before people have already spent much time on & familiar with the moon? The movie Ad Astra was more realistic with that aspect. It’s trying to run before learning to walk in a new area.
I've seen the movie and the commercial spacetrip is very realistic maybe the only solution to make further steps possible at least faster.But there is a serious and ethical Question to be answered.Are Humans from planet earth allowed to exploit the resources of the moon or Mars or can nations from earth Claim parts of it for their one?
Maybe there are rules in the Univers we dont know of, like :It is only allowed to use the recource of planets on the planet(or moon) otherwise there would be problems like we have know or one day we will witness the first interstellar war.
 
Nov 2019
125
United States
I hate to be the spoil sport in this jambalaya of hopes and dreams, but the reality is long term space flight, even to a location as close as Mars is essentially a death sentence to astronauts. The primary reason is neutron irradiation. Astronauts traveling as far as the moon maintain a minimal protection of the earths radiation belt, but even in those rather limited missions, we see the long term effect of additional exposure to neutron irradiation which essentially tears not only at the cellular structure, but also at the DNA structure of astronauts on missions that are 1/2 or 1/3 the duration of a mission to Mars, with 10 to 20 times more exposure to neutron irradiation. To defeat that impact would require a structure so large around the "capsule" that would make it impossible. Beyond that is the simple impact of long term exposure of weightlessness on humans.

We are designed for the environment we live in, including and especially our specific gravity. As the National Institute of Health points out:

"The spaceflight environment presents numerous challenges to astronauts’ bone health, the most significant of which are the effects of microgravity and space radiation. Decreases in bone strength that result from a loss of bone mass or architectural stability could impact mission success by increasing the risk of a serious fracture. A robust system of countermeasures that can limit bone loss, and return bone strength to baseline levels postflight, is required to ensure astronauts’ long-term skeletal health and the productivity of extended missions.
Bone damage that occurs after absorbing therapeutic radiation has been documented for decades. Recent animal models are now beginning to demonstrate that spaceflight-relevant doses and qualities of radiation represent a risk to skeletal health due to an acute increase in bone resorption followed by the suppression of bone formation [1, 2]. Skeletal unloading, due to extended periods of bed rest [3] or the reduced gravity environment of space [4], is a well-known cause of bone loss in both humans and rodent models [5]. Unloading-induced bone loss is characterized by both increased bone resorption and decreased bone formation. This stands in contrast to traditional postmenopausal osteoporosis, which sees bone resorption and formation moving in parallel, albeit with the former increasing to a relatively greater degree. The combination of microgravity unloading and spaceflight radiation may interact to enhance bone loss [68]. As the mechanisms leading to radiation-induced bone loss are less well established than unloading-induced bone loss, this review will focus on the current state of knowledge regarding the influence of clinical and spaceflight radiation on the development of osteoporosis and bone health in the adult skeleton."

However that is just the beginning of the story about why this is a fiction, the next issue is supplying them with enough food and other resources to survive for nearly 3 years, in case they happened to be alive by the time they reached Mars. Each person would be required to have 7000 lbs of food for a 5 year mission. If you extrapolate and assume that the mission would include at least 5 members that is 35,000 lbs of food. That is a lot when you consider that you have to have room for all that plus fuel to make a landing and take off again.

Then there is simply the psychological factor, which is more of an issue than some may think of. But let's just say that I pick you up tomorrow and put you into a 20' tunnel and tell you that you if have to live it in for the next 5 years and if you leave it you will immediately die. Imagine that will just go swimmingly! We've have already witnessed cases on the ISS where personnel had to be, sedated, and that in a situation where nominally we could retrieve people "relatively" quickly.

Elon Musk is a first rate fraud, charlatan, pick your word for it. In the interim, he makes billions on the tax-payer's dimes, and dollars of money (including being heavily subsidized by tax payers for his cars and other crack pot schemes (nearly 50% of the cost or his cars are tax payer supplied)).
 
Last edited:
Nov 2019
125
United States
FYI, one single solar flare, for which in open space you have no protection from, would kill everyone on board. We are about to reach an episode of flares which will be very high. Meaning that space flight outside our planet's protection would be exceptional stupid.
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,235
Italy, Lago Maggiore
I know those arguments and they are valid. What the space agencies are studying is just a way to face those problems. Personally I prefer the idea of a wide rotating orbital station with a hull suitable to protect [there are ideas about using a water layer between special alloys layers ...]. Regarding the travel, today the only feasible solution to protect the crew [if they find volunteers to risk!] is a safe room protected by [again] particular alloys and water. This anyway would require to monitor the sun to warn the personnel on board. This is not that easy: a solar storm can travel at 1,000 - 2,000 km/s and obviously some radiations travel at the same speed of the signal coming from the guardian probes ...

Obviously enough, to live the protection of our planet without safe, sure and stable solutions to this problem wouldn't be a great idea!
 

Ancientgeezer

Ad Honorem
Nov 2011
8,898
The Dustbin, formerly, Garden of England
I agree that "settlement" on Mars is a pipe dream for the foreseeable future, however permanent bases in the interior of the Antarctic for scientific research were also a pipe dream just over a century ago* and there have been a dozen or so there for fifty-odd years now. A Mars scientific base or bases is probably the extent of any Martian "settlement" at least on a multi generational timescale.
As far as the viability of an actual journey to Mars is concerned--the gravity situation is easily solved--we all know the answer to that one- (so did Wernher von Braun). The food supply was addressed in the earliest studies, such as von Braun's Marsprojekt by having a fleet of spacecraft all travelling simultaneously and when the technology started to look achievable through having non-returning cargo landers pre-positioned, as first postulated by the British Interplanetary Society's proposal in the 1960s and a common feature of every NASA and Russian proposal since the 1980s (and featured in at least two recent films about a Mars trip).
IRO radiation protection-the ISS has a hardened "funk hole" where astronauts can retreat to in the event of solar flares. Now of course the ISS is in LEO and has the protection of the Earth's magnetic field, so a why not make a magnetic field for manned Mars craft? Both NASA and the ESA are playing with the concept of a simple magnetic field to deflect both solar and cosmic ray particles from penetrating a spacecraft--your very own Star Trek forcefield! Although how you power it without a warp reactor or two has yet to be worked out. But there is always the vision of new radiation absorbing materials--there is a lot of work on this being done on both sides of the Atlantic--but there is no way anyone would be ready for a Mars mission within a couple of decades or so--but it will probably be possible.
Meanwhile robotics gets better and better and further exploration of Mars will probably done vicariously for anther generation.
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,235
Italy, Lago Maggiore
I agree that "settlement" on Mars is a pipe dream for the foreseeable future, however permanent bases in the interior of the Antarctic for scientific research were also a pipe dream just over a century ago* and there have been a dozen or so there for fifty-odd years now. A Mars scientific base or bases is probably the extent of any Martian "settlement" at least on a multi generational timescale.
As far as the viability of an actual journey to Mars is concerned--the gravity situation is easily solved--we all know the answer to that one- (so did Wernher von Braun). The food supply was addressed in the earliest studies, such as von Braun's Marsprojekt by having a fleet of spacecraft all travelling simultaneously and when the technology started to look achievable through having non-returning cargo landers pre-positioned, as first postulated by the British Interplanetary Society's proposal in the 1960s and a common feature of every NASA and Russian proposal since the 1980s (and featured in at least two recent films about a Mars trip).
IRO radiation protection-the ISS has a hardened "funk hole" where astronauts can retreat to in the event of solar flares. Now of course the ISS is in LEO and has the protection of the Earth's magnetic field, so a why not make a magnetic field for manned Mars craft? Both NASA and the ESA are playing with the concept of a simple magnetic field to deflect both solar and cosmic ray particles from penetrating a spacecraft--your very own Star Trek forcefield! Although how you power it without a warp reactor or two has yet to be worked out. But there is always the vision of new radiation absorbing materials--there is a lot of work on this being done on both sides of the Atlantic--but there is no way anyone would be ready for a Mars mission within a couple of decades or so--but it will probably be possible.
Meanwhile robotics gets better and better and further exploration of Mars will probably done vicariously for anther generation.
The last invention by Lockheed Martin is an anti radiation vest ["AstroRad"]. This technology is a development for the future Orion ship and two female mannequins will test it: in an Orion flight to the Moon and back "Zohar" will wear the vest "Helga" will not.
Shielding astronauts from space radiation on the way to the Moon
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,235
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Errata corrice: Lockheed Martin has developed AstroRad.

Coming to a possible magnetic shield, I have to read more about this idea. I know they are working on this, but estimates regarding the energy to supply to the shield are quite variable.