Operation Cyclone - The Birth of Jihadism

Feb 2015
2,038
UK
You named the thread "Operation Cyclone - The Birth of Jihadism" and then want on a rank to show that the US assistance to the Muj fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan is responsible for jihadism and extremism. That's bull. It might be true in some ways for Pakistan, but the Middle East and other Muslim countries were having issues with various types of extremism and jihadism before Afghanistan was invaded, or immaterial to it.
This thread is about the Jihadism and Af-Pak region. I lived through those times. I never heard the word 'Jihadism' in 1970s anywhere. It came to the lexicon in 1980s. The industrial scale use of jihadism as a concept to achieve political goals at the level where it was done has no other precedant than the Afghan Jihad.
 

tornada

Ad Honoris
Mar 2013
15,398
India
I will agree that arming the Jihadists to fight the Soviets was a bad idea.

But Islamic extremism has been around since the end of World War 2, long before the 80s
To be fair, Islamic extremist movements predates the World Wars. There have been quite a few extremist jihadist movements, the cold war and the proxies that they became only provided an outlet. And ofcourse as the world became more Globalized, so too did Extremist Islam.
 
Feb 2015
2,038
UK
Time Map of Islamic Terrorist groups in Af-Pak region. You will notice before 1980 there is NON.

and I reiterate this thread is primarily about Af-Pak region and is NOT about blame game. Saudia, USA and Pakistan were equally behind the Operation Cyclone.

Pakistan | Mapping Militant Organizations

Edit: I am not gobbing off here. I have given many sources. Many from Pres. Carter's own National security Advisor Brzeziniski who would know more then a just a bit about what happened and it's consequences.
 
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Pacific_Victory

Ad Honorem
Oct 2011
7,654
MARE PACIFICVM
One part of the whole situation which I have always found tragically ironic are the U.S. funded textbooks which we provided for the Afghans during the Soviet war. They were absolutely full of anti-Russian propaganda, and some of it has really come back to bite us.

For example -

The majority of the book’s 41 lessons glorify violence in the name of religion. “My uncle has a gun,” reads the entry for the letter T, using the Pashto word for “gun,” “topak.” “He does jihad with the gun.”
The entry for the letter K reads,
“Kabul is the capital of our dear country. No one can invade our country. Only Muslim Afghans can rule over this country.”
“Our religion is Islam. Muhammad is our leader. All the Russians and infidels are our enemy,”
 
Feb 2015
2,038
UK
Bin Laden, Ayman Al Zawari of Al Qaeda, Mullah Omar of Taliban and most of the senior fighting cadre of Al Qeada or other men who went back to their countries post Soviet withdrawal were fired in the cricible of the Afghan Jihad.

Al-Qaeda ([ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English"]/[/ame]ælˈkdə[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English"]/[/ame] [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:pronunciation_respelling_key"]al-KY-də[/ame] or [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English"]/[/ame]ˌælkɑːˈdə[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English"]/[/ame] [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:pronunciation_respelling_key"]AL-kah-EE-də[/ame]; [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language"]Arabic[/ame]: القاعدة‎ al-qāʿidah, Arabic: [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Arabic"][ælqɑːʕɪdɐ][/ame], translation: "The Base", "The Foundation" or "The Fundament" and alternatively spelled al-Qaida and sometimes al-Qa'ida) is a global [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militant_Islamist"]militant Islamist[/ame] organization founded by [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden"]Osama bin Laden[/ame], [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_Azzam"]Abdullah Azzam[/ame],[46] and several other militants,[47] at some point between August 1988[48] and late 1989,[47] with origins traceable to the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan"]Soviet war in Afghanistan[/ame].[49][50] It operates as a network comprising both a multinational, stateless army[51] and an [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamist"]Islamist[/ame], [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_extremist"]extremist[/ame], [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi"]wahhabi[/ame], [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihadist"]jihadist[/ame] group.[52]

Mullah Omar of Taliban

Omar fought as a rebel soldier with the anti-Soviet [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen"]Mujahideen[/ame] under the command of Nek Mohammad and others, but did not fight against the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Najibullah"]Najibullah[/ame] regime between 1991 and 1992.[24] It was reported that he was thin, but tall and strongly built, and "a crack marksman who had destroyed many Soviet tanks during the Afghan War."[

In fact almost invariably most of the middle or senior fighting cadre of Al Qaeda or the senior fighting cadre of the Taliban are got their baptism of fire in the Afghan jihad.

In addition the USE of the term 'JIHAD' was exceptionally rare before 1980. I gre up in 1970s and I never heard it EVER. PLO was a secular socialist outfight much like Irish IRA, Baader Meinhof Gang in Germany or Basque sparatists in Spain.

To link PLO with Al Qaeda or Taliban is outright disengenous. Thats comparing apples with oranges.
PLO has significant Palestinians with Christian heritage as I alluded to George Habash or Hana Ashrawi.

Hanna Asharawi [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanan_Ashrawi"]Hanan Ashrawi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Liberation_Organization"]Palestine Liberation Organization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Habash"]George Habash - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Irish_Republican_Army"]Provisional Irish Republican Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction"]Red Army Faction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETA"]ETA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

A example of the secular nature of PLO. The PLO attack and hijacking of Isreali's in Entebbe and the subject of move Raid on Entebbe was led by PLOWaddie Hada who was Christian. In addition PLO was supported by German left wing radical Wilfried Bose.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Entebbe"]Operation Entebbe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

So there is no link synergestic or otherwise between PLO and the Af-Pak jihadis as much as there is no link between Oklahoma bombings and London bomings by IRA.
 
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Mar 2013
3,909
Texas, USA
@ Atilla006

The example you drew has the following logic

Oklahoma Boming 1995.




has what connect with Provisional Irish army bombing of Canary Wharf, London 1996.





1996 Docklands bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oklahoma City bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What has X got to do with Y? What both were Christians? Both were 'white' or indeed did both speek English? If you want to find a common denominator you cal always do that. I mam NOT saying there is any link between the Timothy Mcveigh and IRA bombing. Both were driven by entirely differant dynamics in the same WAY as PLO and the trouble in AF-Pak is driven.

This thread specifically covers the AF-Pak region and it's linkage to the Afghan Jihad of 1980s

x

Neither Timothy McVeigh or the IRA did what they did over religious extremism. Meanwhile, the terrorist actions committed by the MUSLIM Brotherhood did commit crimes specifically over Islamic extremism.

If you wanted to cover AF-Pak region you should have placed this in the appropriate section of Historum and you should not have generalized the title, claiming that the US govt's OPERATION Cyclone was responsible for jihadism. Its been around far longer than the Soviets were in Afghanistan.
 
Mar 2013
3,909
Texas, USA
This thread is about the Jihadism and Af-Pak region. I lived through those times. I never heard the word 'Jihadism' in 1970s anywhere. It came to the lexicon in 1980s. The industrial scale use of jihadism as a concept to achieve political goals at the level where it was done has no other precedant than the Afghan Jihad.
Because you are Pakistan focused on everything, it appears you are absolutely blind to the developments that were happening all over the Middle East throughout the 20th century. Like I mentioned earlier, the Muslim Brotherhood, the strongest Muslim extremist jihad movement in recent history, has its roots well before the Soviet Afghan War.

Tenets of the Muslim Brotherhood: "Allah is our objective; the Qur'an is the Constitution; the Prophet is our leader; jihad is our way; death for the sake of Allah is our wish"
 
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Feb 2015
2,038
UK
One part of the whole situation which I have always found tragically ironic are the U.S. funded textbooks which we provided for the Afghans during the Soviet war. They were absolutely full of anti-Russian propaganda, and some of it has really come back to bite us.

For example -

Thank you. Pacific I hope you know I am not doing this to bash USA. I blame Pakjistan, Saudia and US. As Brzizinski said even in hindsight it might have been the right thing to do. I live through the latter stages of cold war. We used to have civil warning on TV in case of Soviet nuclear attack., Those days are gone.

In my neighbourhood I run into what were the erstwhile enemies. Polish, Lithuinians, Latvians, Bulgarians, Slovaks. so maybe as Brzezinki says it was worth it. However we must at least acknowledge what happened and it's blowback today. is that NOT what history is all about>

BTW those books and phamplets are STILL being printed !!!
 
Feb 2015
2,038
UK
Because you are Pakistan focused on everything, it appears you are absolutely blind to the developments that were happening all over the Middle East throughout the 20th century. Like I mentioned earlier, the Muslim Brotherhood, the strongest Muslim extremist jihad movement in recent history, has its roots well before the Soviet Afghan War.

Tenets of the Muslim Brotherhood: "Allah is our objective; the Qur'an is the Constitution; the Prophet is our leader; jihad is our way; death for the sake of Allah is our wish"
Agreed. However can you give me the scale and size of 'jihadism' and it's effects prior to 1980? PLO and Isreal/Palestine issue is secular like the Irish and British or Basque and Spain.
 
Mar 2013
3,909
Texas, USA
Agreed. However can you give me the scale and size of 'jihadism' and it's effects prior to 1980? PLO and Isreal/Palestine issue is secular like the Irish and British or Basque and Spain.
Are you referring to calls for jihad from other lands? The issues in places like Palestine and Egypt weren't about lack of available fighting men, nor was there an international outcry outside those countries for Muslims to flock to them to fight back (aside from joint offensive by Muslim nations against the "infidel" Israelis). In Afghanistan, you have the perfect storm of international outrage, an atheistic invader, modern media pushing for action, rising extremism in the Middle East with no available outlet (national wars against Israel are done), and the US and Saudi Arabia funding an insurgency.

But jihad and Islamic extremism were well founded before the 1980s. Just research organizations like the Muslim Brotherhood, founded in the 1920s.

Also, Brzezinski was a specialist on the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact, he had pretty much zero background in the Middle East, which is largely why the US actions during the Carter administration were so terrible. So I'd take whatever he says with a grain of salt. He is not a subject matter expert on Middle East or Islamic studies, nor was he much involved the Soviet-Afghan War, as he left when Carter left. At best, he signed off on programs planned and carried out by more knowledgeable non-politically appointed experts.