Opposition: Herodotus' Histories and Black Egyptians Theory

Nov 2018
Ancient Egyptians NEVER portrayed themselves the same as Black Africans or Nubians:
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I wouldn't take the mural from the Book of Gates so seriously, as you can see the image you posted is just a copy of the original.

Here is an updated version of the image:


You can clearly see that the Hyskos are now deep brownish complexion in this redone, instead of being pearly white like the "Libyans". I also must point out that such depictions redone by Westerners are a prime example of confusion regarding anthropology. You see, the very depiction itself seems to not necessarily depict both the Libyans and the Hyskos correctly. In the original portrait the Libyans are blurred out, while the Hyskos are pretty much bleached at this point and could of been darker, when you look at some of their patches. Also, the choice for the reddish complexion of the Egyptian man seems to be more of a symbolic nature, rather than a realistic one.

Here is the original mural:

Nov 2018
Egyptians and their black African slaves, showing once again and again, Egyptians were NOT black Africans:
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I see your resorting to Photoshop images now, here is the original depiction:


Your very examples of a racial difference of the ancient Egyptians from other Africans is the very example most anthropologists, if not all has abandon. You have to be more aware of the fact that depictions are not always what they seem. Some of the portraits you might assume as being non-African is just something that wasn't meant to be taken seriously. Also, when western anthropologists began to determine what particular race ancient populations were base on some fade off depictions, they took this into account as being different races, here is what i mean by this:



I mean at one time the Nubians themselves were consider racially different from other Africans.
Nov 2018
Afrocentric idiots love to claim that this sculpture of Queen Tiye portrays a black African:
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But her parents were NATURAL BLONDES as according to HAIR ANALYSIS. Some historians say the parents of Queen Tiye, Yuya and Tjuyu might have been Mitanni (Syrians) in origin
New Research Shows that Some Ancient Egyptians Were Naturally Fair-Haired
Yuya - Wikipedia
Not to be a downer or anything but the Egyptian hair being fair isn't something that would guaranteed they were white or mixed for that matter, her hair texture and pigment would be among African variation. Light hair is more so typical among some African populations, than most people give them credit for and this is not result of inter-mixture with whites. The hair of Africans is highly variable, ranging from tight curls of South African Bantu, to the loose curls and straight hair of peoples of East and NE Africa, all indigenously evolved over millennia as part of Africa’s high genetic diversity. This diversity undermines and ultimately dismisses simplistic "racial" claims based on hair.

Inconsistencies of the skewed "true negro" model and definitions of African hair

Dubious assertions, double standards and outmoded racial hair claims:
Czech anthropologist Strouhal's 1971 study touched on hair, and advanced the most extreme racial definitions, claiming Nubians to be white Europids overrun by later waves of Negroes, and that few Negroes appeared in Egypt until the New Kingdom. Indeed, Strouhal went so far as to argue that 'Negroes' failed to survive long in Egypt, because they were ill-adapted to its arid climate! Tell that to the Saharans, Sudanese and Nubians! Such dubious claims have been thoroughly debunked by modern scholarship, however they continue in various guises by those who attempt to use "hair" to assign race 'percents' and categories to the ancients. Attempts to define racial categories based on the ancient hair rely heavily on extreme definitions, with "Negroids" typically being defined as narrowly as possible. Everything not meeting the extreme "type" is then classified as something else, such as "Caucasian".

Kieta (1990, Studies of Crania from Northern Africa) notes that while many scholars in the field have used an extreme "true negro" definition for African peoples, few have attempted to apply the same model in reverse and define a "true white." Such racial double standards are typical of much scholarship on the ancient Nile Valley peoples. A consistent approach for example would define the straight hair in Strouhal's hair sample as an exclusive Caucasian marker (10 out of 49 or approximately 20%) and make the rest (wavy and curled) hybrid or negro, at >80%. Assorted writers who support the Aryan race percent model however, are careful to avoid such consistency and typically only run the comparison one way.

Environmental factors can influence hair color, and the Egyptians routinely placed hair from different sources in mummy wrappings, making claims of "Nordic-haired" or "white" Egyptians dubious.

Mummification practices and dyeing of hair. Hair studies of mummies note that color is often influenced by environmental factors at burial sites. Brothwell and Spearman (1963) point out that reddish-brown ancient color hair is usually the result of partial oxidation of the melanin pigment. Other causes of hair color "blonding" involve bleaching, caused by the alkaline in the mummification process. Color also varies due to the Egyptian practice of dyeing hair with henna. Other samples show individuals lightening the hair using vegetable colorants. Thus variations in hair color among mummies do not necessarily suggest the presence of blond or red-haired Europeans or Near Easterners flitting about Egypt before being mummified, but the influence of environmental factors.

Dubious attempts at 'racial analysis' using Nubian hair and crania. Assorted supporters of the stereotypical Aryan 'race' model attempt to use hair to argue for a predominantly 'white' Nubia. But as noted above, such attempts are dubious given built-in African genetic diversity. Often 'racial' hair claims attempt to link on with cranial studies purporting to match ancient Nubians with Swedes, Frenchmen, etc. But such claims are also dubious. In a detailed analysis of the Fordisc computer program used to put forward such claims, Williams, Armelagos, et al. (2005) found that the program created ludicrous "matches" between the ancient Nubian crania and peoples from Hungary, Japan, Easter Island and a host of others in far-flung regions! Their conclusion was that the diversity of human populations in the databank explained such wide ranging matches. Such objective mainstream analyses debunk obsolete and improbable claims of 'racial' migrations of alleged Frenchman, Hungarians, or other whites into ancient Nubia, or equally improbable racial 'percentages' supposedly quantifying such claims. (Frank l'engle Williams, Robert L. Belcher, and George J . Armelagos, "Forensic Misclassification of Ancient Nubian Crania: Implications for Assumptions about Human Variation," Current Anthropology, volume 46 (2005), pages 340-346)

The yellowish-red-hair of Rameses: proof of a Nordic Egypt?

Red hair itself is within the range of African diversity or that of dark-skinned peoples. Native black Australoids for example routinely produce blonde hair:

Detailed microscopic analysis during the 1980s (Balout 1985) identified some of the hair of Egyptian Pharoah Rameses II as being a yellowish-red. Such a finding should not be surprising given the wide range of physical variability in Africa, the most genetically diverse region on earth, out of which flowed other population groups. Indeed, blondism and various other hair shades are not unknown in East Africa or Nubia, particularly in children, nor are such hair color variants uncommon in dark-haired or dark skinned populations like the Australians. (Hrdy 1978) Given the range of genetic variability in Africa, a red-haired Rameses is hardly unusual. Rameses' reign, in the 19th Dynasty, came over 1,500 years after the Egyptian state had been established, and after the Hyskos interlude. Such latecomers to Egypt, like the Hyskos, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs etc would add their own genetic strands to the nation’s mix. Whatever the blend of genes that occurred with Rameses, his hair offers little supposed "proof" of a "white" or "Nordic" Egypt. If anything, X-rays of the royal mummies from earlier Dynasties by mainstream scientists show that the Egyptians pharaohs and other royals had varied 'Negroid' leanings. See X-Rays of the Royal mummies here, or here.

Pheomelanin and Rameses- found in light and dark-haired populations: The finding of Rameses “red” hair also deserves further scrutiny. The analysis found evidence of dyeing to make the hair yellowish-red, but some elements were untouched by the dye. These elements of yellowish-red hair in Balout’s study, were established on the basis of the presence of pheomelanin, a red-brown polymeric pigment in the skin and hair of humans. However, pheomelanin can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well, which gives it a reddish hue. Most natural melanins contain sulfur, which is typically associated with pheomelanin. In scientific tests of melanin, black hair contained as much as 5% sulfur, 3% lower than the 8.8% found in Irish red hair, but exceeding the 2.3% found in Scandinavian blond hair. (Jolles, et al. 1996) Thus the yellowish-red hair discovered on Rameses is well within the range of human variation for dark haired people, whatever the exact gene combination that led to the condition.

Rameses hair was not a typical European red, but yellowish-red, within African variation. It was also not ultra straight, further undermining claims of "Nordic" influence. Somalians and Ethiopians are SUB-SAHARANS and they routinely produce straight-haired people without the need for any "race mix" to explain why. The analysis on Rameses also did not show classic "European" red hair but hair of a light red to yellowish tinge. Black haired or dark-skinned populations are quite capable of producing such yellowish-red color variants on their own, as can be seen in today's east and northeast Africa (see child's photo above). Nor is such color variation unusual to Africa. Native dark-skinned populations in Australia, routinely produce people with blond or reddish hair. As noted above, ultra diverse Africa is the original source of such variation.

Here is an example of what i'm talking about when I say that some Africans can have light hair:


Southern Egyptian children, note the blondish brownish hair.
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May 2018
On earth.

Hey guys... instead of arguing on the semantics of what race the Egyptians were, why don't we accept that they were a mixture of peoples with different origins, especially depending on where in Egypt you are, just as in modern egypt :)
Nov 2018

Hey guys... instead of arguing on the semantics of what race the Egyptians were, why don't we accept that they were a mixture of peoples with different origins, especially depending on where in Egypt you are, just as in modern egypt :)
Well, it's more complicated than that, obviously ancient North Africans and even Middle Easterners to some degree were mixed and diverse as they are now, so therefore they would be always heterogeneous, in a ethnic sense. But the problem is were they physically like the modern inhabitants of those regions. When we come to understand particular populations and how they became to be we have to wonder when they they became this way. People nowadays like to point out to the Eurasian back-flow as evidence that ancient North Africans resemble their modern counterparts, but is this a valid point. The Eurasian migrants didn't necessarily displaced the previous inhabitants, just intermingle with them. Mot only that we have to get our heads around this, were ancient Middle Easterners themselves like their modern counterparts, now some would say that the Middle East had always been a crossroads of peoples, but how effective was this. I mean when you look at it, the peopling of these two regions mainly occur during prehistoric times and as we look at the Eurasian migration back to Africa, this itself occur during the Neolithic, mainly concerning those of the Levant and Arabia than anywhere else. Not only that but from what it seems Middle Easterners basically a tropical and arid adaptable body-plan as late as the Bronze age, just like Africans. This itself indicate something. But this is simply ignored by many and their prime focus is pseudo scientific notion of skull shapes. This very identifier of race is very misleading given that the Egyptians and Nubians, as well as Golden Horners, some Sahelian ethnic groups, South Asians, even Oceanic peoples have been once classified as Caucasoid by 19th century and 20th century anthropologists, whom they simply disregard African diversity. This was the many examples of distancing other populations of Africa from other groups deem by Europeans as being of the Caucasian stock, basically going by the true Negro method. The point i'm trying to make is that when we are dealing with the populations that later became the Egyptians, them seem by all accounts to be of a variety of African origin, mainly Eastern and Saharan African with as well a Western Asian input, but it seems that Western Asian input didn't necessarily racially change the early inhabitants of the Nile Valley, only some cultural changes were made on the inhabitants. Also, I must point out that West Asian migration didn't effect North Africans, but also Eastern, Southern, and some Central, as well as some Western Africans, which is where the whole notion that Eastern Africans were a mix of true Negroes and wandering Caucasoid came from. Now with that being said, there are many plausible and debatable assertions that both North Africans and Middle Easterners experience a demographic change within 2-3000 years or so, than literally going to prehistory, misrepresenting ancient populations and trying to fit in a particular group into a region when they basically were nowhere to be found or still physically changing, as well as to stop undermining the African origin of prehistoric populations outside of Africa, mainly in the Middle East.
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Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
Yes, ALL of the pharaohs were black. No one else has a functioning pineal gland to reach the Christ state of the pharaohs except for the original black man. The peer reviewed DNA is out. We no longer have to speculate.

Black Black Black :winktongue:
I don't have time for your pointless speculations of my identity.
Reported for discussing DNA. You know better.

Also, you know that that study you posted was done by a proven fraudster who had been caught falsifying results.

We have discussed all of this before.


Forum Staff
Apr 2010
T'Republic of Yorkshire
Lol you're so pathetic. Every culture and civilization in Europe is the product of the ancestors of modern day Europeans... Caucasians..

You're baffled by the fact that you have nothing... no philosophers, no science, nothing really..

Your ego can't deal with the fact that your ancestors left no legacy of any real significance. A few nice sculptures, and that's about it.

You have a massively over-inflated ego so you find this difficult to understand.

Your whole life your left-wing teachers etc have told you that you are special; a special snowflake.

When you failed your tests and exams, when you didn't understand things, your teachers told you it was the fault of racism. You were a victim.

So when you looked into your history you were baffled by the fact that your ancestors accomplished so little.

And then reality came into direct conflict with your special snowflake, coddled little ego. So you went off into the world of make-believe.
I'm impressed. You've managed to commit st least one ad hominem in every sentence in this post, not to mention the rest of the thread. And this is far from the first time you've come to my attention.

So here's what you get as your reward - a one week suspension for every ad hom in this post. The next time, it will be a month each.

John B

Ad Honorem
Mar 2016
I'm impressed. You've managed to commit st least one ad hominem in every sentence in this post, not to mention the rest of the thread. And this is far from the first time you've come to my attention.

So here's what you get as your reward - a one week suspension for every ad hom in this post. The next time, it will be a month each.
For some reason this subject and all its iterations is nothing short of decisive. Maybe just not allowing it in the end is a solution. It is a cancer in most forums.