Origin of magic

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,378
Australia
I'm prepared to accept the placebo effect. There us also the well attested fact that a sense of well-being and a positive attitude is conducive to good health - depression weakens the immune system and perhaps oeioke wgi are optimistic take better care of themselves.
In my studies and experiments , most success has involved a type of 'placebo' effect . ' Magic ' ( note marks) works well on that level - the subjective level. Its the objective , 'outside' the self level that has not been demonstrated ;

magical experiment 'inside' the self : you give everyone a magical canister that stops them getting the flu , then expose them all to the flu, some will get it some will not . We might see a higher percentage do not get it with the magical placebo than when we do the experiment without the placebo. All this really shows is the power of the internal system and how it works in concert with one's psychology.

The other experiment would be more like , we give people a canister and tell them it is a rat repellent (it emits a frequency, pheromone, smell or some other 'scientifically valid ' process ) but some are fake , get them to run 'tests' on the repellent . If rats are repelled by the placebos then it demonstrates something else , that the 'placebo magic' works OUTSIDE of the persons psychology - somehow they 'projected' the placebo effect either into the cannister or the rats .

I dont think anyone has done an experiment like that .

Some people say the Aboriginal plant remedy I took for kidney stone pain where a placebo.. except when , the first time I was in hospital for it, on release I got a pill to take, the pills said they where from an extract of a native plant and it had a little picture of the same plant I used on the bottle . It was not an 'alternative medicine ' , it was an 'allopathic product at the chemist that I needed a prescription for , and when I was in hospital they where injecting a form of it into my bloodstream .
What I'm not prepared to accept without more scientific evidence is the efficacy of reiki, chi-gong and so on. The British NHS did a study on reiki and concluded that it had no health benefits,
Reiki ?


Mhe .

Super chi gong powers ?




Can apparently be repelled by magically charged jeans and t-shirt :)
 
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holoow

Ad Honorem
Jun 2012
3,839
Vilnius, Lithuania
Ummm ... dude ! You yourself , regarding magic , just said : " It's all inside person. It's imaginary. "

There is definitely a correlation, I suggest you read the links I posted for you



So ... only what you think counts eh ? Okay, lets just ignore the ideas of Heraclitus, Plotinus and Plato; Coleridge, Eliot and Hughes; Boehme, Blake and Yeats; Jung and Hillman and ......



... but you think the speculations of Sagan matters ? What would he know of such subjects ? He is a scientist !

Its like when scientists try to debunk astrology and point out that scientific information proves that the sun in astology is not even where astrologers say it is ... so they laugh and carry on and make fun of them ... totally ignorant of the difference between sidereal and tropical astrology ... that western tropical astrology is the only type that does this . And that early astologers where the forerunners of todays scientific astronomy .

Regarding your question, that is partly what the book is about , its explained there.



Thats rather a simplistic view of things . Do you think the vast majority of people today DO NOT have religion or belief in an after life ? If life being so bad in the past is the reason for religion and after life beliefs ... how come when life is so good in the present ( as you believe ) people still believe in all this . Its not making much sense .



Many still do .



No, not at all, they are valid areas of the human experience, that is why we study hem in cultural anthropology . Besides, I am not talking about 'religious faith'



What ! ? AFter you said all that, you are going to state what 'The Universe' cares about or not ? :D

I think you need to read this thread carefully ... this might help as well

Isaac Newton's occult studies - Wikipedia
There are a lot of misunderstanding here ( probably because my English is not that good :) ). My point is that all 'spirituality' can be explained as natural phenomenon, not what it is non existent. Can someone built house using only power of his/her mind? If no, then there is no point in believing in 'supernatural', 'divine' things or out of this world 'spirituality'.
 

holoow

Ad Honorem
Jun 2012
3,839
Vilnius, Lithuania
Thats rather a simplistic view of things . Do you think the vast majority of people today DO NOT have religion or belief in an after life ? If life being so bad in the past is the reason for religion and after life beliefs ... how come when life is so good in the present ( as you believe ) people still believe in all this . Its not making much sense .
Well, if really wealthy people start research religious mindset, then something must be wrong with religion :D. For example, Israeli-Russian oligarch and policitian Vitaly Malkin.

71dDUupfDtL.jpg
 

holoow

Ad Honorem
Jun 2012
3,839
Vilnius, Lithuania
... but you think the speculations of Sagan matters ? What would he know of such subjects ?
Hmmm. Do you really think there is no difference between Sagan and Jung? Astrophysicist and ...fairy tales analyst Jung? Mrs., hard science matters!
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,378
Australia
There are a lot of misunderstanding here ( probably because my English is not that good :) ). My point is that all 'spirituality' can be explained as natural phenomenon, not what it is non existent.
I suppose that is the problem .... now I am having trouble with your 'non existant phenomena . ' Also you might need to read what I wrote more carefully . I have been talking about the validity of NATURAL magic . You need to go back and read that. The magic I am talking about is not the magic that you do not believe in.

Saying 'spirituality' is not a natural phenomena is also confusing due to what the world spirituality means ;

" Spirituality is a broad concept with room for many perspectives. In general, it includes a sense of connection to something bigger than ourselves, and it typically involves a search for meaning in life. As such, it is a universal human experience—something that touches us all. "

It seems a natural phenomena of the human experience , but again 'spirituality' is not what I am talking about either . I am talking about magic .

Can someone built house using only power of his/her mind? If no, then there is no point in believing in 'supernatural', 'divine' things or out of this world 'spirituality'.
Psychic house building is not a branch of magic either . A belief in the supernatural is not needed either . Not even divine things .

My standard in studying and practicing magic is this ; if it doesnt have some correlation in nature , or a force of nature , then for me, its some human head trip and I am not interested . I am also not interested in any unproductive things , magic should be practiced to help develop and express one's skills talents and purpose.

Sure there are other reasons for practicing it , and a whole range of perverted, useless and entertainment forms which go under the same name . I will define what I am talking about .... or rather , let someone else define it ;

"Magic is the Highest, most Absolute, and most Divine Knowledge of Natural Philosophy, advanced in its works and wonderful operations by a right understanding of the inward and occult virtue of things; so that true Agents being applied to proper Patients, strange and admirable effects will thereby be produced. Whence magicians are profound and diligent searchers into Nature; they, because of their skill, know how to anticipate an effect, the which to the vulgar shall seem to be a miracle."
The Goetia of the Lemegeton of King Solomon.

Note the emphasis on nature .

" Thus its fundamental conception is identical with that of modern science; underlying the whole system is a faith, implicit but real and firm, in the order and uniformity of nature.
Dr. J. G. FRAZER, "The Golden Bough".

"Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will ... In one sense Magick may be defined as the name given to Science by the vulgar ... Every intentional act is a Magickal act ... The first requisite for causing any change is thorough qualitative and quantitative understanding of the conditions. ... Magick is the Science of understanding oneself and one's conditions. It is the Art of applying that understanding in action. "
Crowley.


Its a system of development that attempts to work through deeper layers of the psyche using symbolic tools and process that often stimulate the unconscious nature and develop it and its communication with consciousness. 'Normally' people try to learn through their consciousness. The way magic stimulates one to learn - especially in an initiation ritual or dramatic ritual rite is very effective and modern correlations have recently been discovered using a similar process with VR learning .

Virtual Reality: THE Learning Aid Of The 21st Century

( the explanation as to why this is so is a bit longer, a bit off topic, but I can explain if need be )

Any 'strange' or 'super natural ' occurrences, as a result or practice, should ' be taken with a grain if salt ' ... like the 'siddhis' of yoga , they should be considered a distraction from the personal developmental work at hand .

here is an introduction to a ritual magic 'handbook' ;

" This book is very easy to misunderstand; readers are asked to use the most minute critical care in the study of it, even as we have done in its preparation.

" In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth and the Paths; of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist.

It is immaterial whether these exist or not. By doing certain things certain results will follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them.

The advantages to be gained from them are chiefly these:
(a) A widening of the horizon of the mind.
(b) An improvement of the control of the mind.

The student, if he attains any success in the following practices, will find himself confronted by things (ideas or beings) too glorious or too dreadful to be described. It is essential that he remain the master of all that he beholds, hears or conceives; otherwise he will be the slave of illusion, and the prey of madness. "

- Liber 0

(my emhpasis)

Could it be any clearer ?

From the Yogis perspective ; " This is an important topic. Siddhis (yogic powers) exist. They are part of the spiritual path, but can become a major instrument of maya (illusion), resulting in the downfall of yogis who desire them. "

The Danger of Siddhis (Yogic Powers) — Ananda
 
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specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,378
Australia
Well, if really wealthy people start research religious mindset, then something must be wrong with religion :D. For example, Israeli-Russian oligarch and policitian Vitaly Malkin.

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Im not really understanding you .... your response seems unrelated to the point made and the question asked of you about what you wrote before . And I not talking about religion either , so putting that up as some type of counter point is ..... pointless .

Its okay , I am not asking you to believe in anything , you are welcome to your views and can 'bow out' of the discussion at any time you want .

But arguing against something you dont understand and with a language handicap, especially in a complex subject like this , will probably just further confuse you .
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,378
Australia
Hmmm. Do you really think there is no difference between Sagan and Jung? Astrophysicist and ...fairy tales analyst Jung? Mrs., hard science matters!
This is more confusion . I never said there was no difference between Sagan and Jung, I said I dont think Sagan is qualified to comment on magic as he he is a scientists and has not studied the history or magic or ever practiced any . Could I comment validly on Cosmology if I have not studied it or ever practiced it ? Thats what I meant .

And I actually went to minor pains to set put and explain what I meant with the examples of astrology. Did you read that ? If so, did you understand it ?

- " Mrs hard science " ? ? ? :think:





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Corvidius

Ad Honorem
Jul 2017
3,047
Crows nest
Hmmm. Do you really think there is no difference between Sagan and Jung? Astrophysicist and ...fairy tales analyst Jung? Mrs., hard science matters!
To interpret the magic in a pharaoh's tomb both Sagan and Jung would be needed. Sagan to interpret astronomical ceilings, that of Seti I for instance, and Jung to interpret the scenes from the Amduat and Book of Gates. In fact Jungian psychology is employed by some Egyptologists, the German speaking ones, to interpret the meaning of the Amduat beyond what we read and see at face value. Magic is a form of psychology and the astronomical ceilings are early cosmology, mixed with some magic.
 
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specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,378
Australia
.... In fact Jungian psychology is employed by some Egyptologists, the German speaking ones, to interpret the meaning of the Amduat beyond what we read and see at face value. ...

Have those 'interpretations' been published in English ?