Origin of The Montenegrins

Mar 2015
So, you think Montenegrins declare as such because they are 'aware' of their Albanian roots?
No. I said that as a general term. I don't think that every Montenegrin which declares a non-Serb ethnicity, have Albanian roots or Albanian old origins. I think that among these who declares the montenegrin as their ethnicity, are even slav montenegrins with old Albanian roots. I don't call them Albanians, and surely they aren't. Definitely there are slav-montenegrins who are aware of their non- Serb earlier roots, and they do not feel as Serbs. Some of these montenegrins are of old Albanian origin, but today they are not Albanians.
Mar 2015
There are albanians living in south like Ulcinj, and some on the very east part of Montenegro who are definitely albanians, sure. But the rest of Montenegro doesnt have albanian roots, thats why i dont understand when you say "some of them are aware of their personal non- Serb roots"?
There have been assimilated many Albanians. Ulcinj, Tivar, Podgorica, Plava, Gucia , were inhabited by Albanians until the independence of Montenegro. You may see in Montenegro plenty Albanian surnames with the montenegrin ending ~ic~. I have already pointed , they are not Albanians.
Nov 2015
Mountains of madness
What you mean by loyal?
muslim serbians viewed ottoman state as their country and felt loyal to it in most cases-they didnt felt liberated serbia as their own.Even today in sandzak you can see great affinity for Turkey and Turkish flags in some public events.


Ad Honorem
Dec 2011
Iowa USA
You think that's good or that's bad?
The negative to the number of the views on the thread (just my opinion of course) is that a certain portion of views are due to "tit for tat" comments between those who put energy into representing the national greatness projects of either Albania or Serbia.

The positive to the number of the views has been some rather amusing "cul de sacs" of humor as well as the presentation of sources of which I had been ignorant.

Since most nations tend towards populations of almost 3 million as a workable minimum, I was motivated to share the ratio of views to population in a sense as yet another heroic tale about Montenegro: "These people love history so much, their origins thread has most views per person of any nation on Historum!"

(Montenegro has an advantage in that having a population that is a fraction of 3 million it will be rather difficult for another European nation to generate the same measure on their thread.)
Mar 2015
Well if karma was anything to go by, I would expect the same faith for Albanians in the future.

"Took", you say. It's not like Serbs had devshirme on their territories and force-converted Muslims back to Christianity. No one forced others to adopt a different religion (or ethnicity), it was a natural assimilation that occurred over a long period that preceeds 19th century. The birth of a national idea of 19th century only cemented the already split peoples along cultural, linguistic and religious lines. Orthodox Albanians who were bilingual and spoke Slavic, and especially those who forgot their mother tongue eventually started declaring as Serbs on their own. Serbs of other religions did the same, especially in areas of Kosovo, Raška and even Macedonia.

They didn't. It's the problem that modern day Bosniaks try to justify by claiming they are all converts from the Bosnian Church and the Bogomils, who's Church was simply too weak to keep it's adherents. Problem is that their Bosnian Church wasn't really large at all.

1) Modern day Bosniaks don't have just Serb ancestry. The line where the Serb and Croat tribes supposedly used to meet goes through Bosnia. So Bosnia was essentially a melting pot of Croats and Serbs from its earliest days. The core of Bosnia and the starting point, however, lied in predominantly Serb-inhabited area, commonly known as Vrhbosna, which is around modern day Sarajevo and in it's early history it was a very small area.
2) Orthodox Church wasn't predominant in Bosnia at all. Not until much later. In Bosnia proper the main religion was Catholic (Hum that was added later was predominantly Orthodox though). And the reason why a lot of Muslims converted is partially due to what Bosniaks claim - weak Bosnian Church and it's adherents did change their religion, but also the nobility collectively converted to Islam to keep their ranks and estates. The common folk converted due to various priviledges Muslims had over Christians.

On the other hand, many predominantly Christian Balkan countries expelled their Muslims from their countries so comparably Bosnia has a large amount of them because they never did anything of the sort. Muslims from Serbia went to Bosnia, even, after Serbs won their freedom. It's also important to say that (based on reliable information) Muslims were never a majority in Bosnia until fairly recently (1970s, I think) and that's due to their high fertility rates and due to various wars prior to that that left a huge scar on the Orthodox population, various genocides in WW1 and WW2 that had hundreds of thousands of Serb orthodox casualties. Chances are, Muslims wouldn't be a relative majority today either if those events never occurred.

But what you say about being distinct is partially true. Eventually they made their own state and were developing their own culture and history that had different influences from Serbia so they did in fact start to distance from each other. But due to Ottoman arrival to the Balkans both countries fell under their influence and the separate evolution was cut short. Perhaps if the Ottoman yoke didn't swallow both countries in 15th century we could talk about a separate identity stemming from the same ethnic background, but that's not the case here.

Also, the Balkans was already inhabited by smaller Slavic tribes prior to Croat and Serb arrival. The large Serb and Croat tribes easily assimilated the smaller ones they found in these areas so in that sense they do have somewhat of a different mixed Slavic background, but Serb and Croat nontheless on the grand scale of things.
I like to stop arvanit your third paragraph. You are almost right about Bosniaks. I think the history of Bosniaks it's a bit akin with Albanian one. Bosniaks weren't too close with neither of the Christian churches. The same as Albanians. Also the extend that we generally point about the Islam converting of Bosniaks and Albanians it's exaggerated. I think the average of Albanian and Bosniak Islam convertion it's less than it's believed. Your explanation above, was realistic and I had earlier elaborated in my mind. The problem it's that the new states of 19th century, Montenegro, Serbia, Bulgaria and especially Greece, moved out of country almost the entire Muslim inhabitants no matter what was their ethnicity. Belgrade it's the one of many cases. This caused an artificial settling of Muslims to regions which were still under the ottoman control, such as Bosnia, Albania, Kosova and Macedonia. Almost all the slavic inhabitants of modern Albania are Muslims, with the exception of a village or a small town near the lake of Prespa, which it's Christian-orthodox. Considering the big numbers of orthodox Albanians which stayed in Greece, I think that they average of Christian Albanians was larger, than it's assumed until today.
Mar 2015
Serbia allowed them either to accept Serbian laws if they wanted to live by them, or to leave and continue to live under Ottoman laws. If they chose to leave, they would get annual rent for property they "owned" in the Sultanate, no property was taken from them.
Serbian law means that one should be adherent of Serbian church?