Origin of The Montenegrins

May 2016
217
Antartica
There have been assimilated many Albanians. Ulcinj, Tivar, Podgorica, Plava, Gucia , were inhabited by Albanians until the independence of Montenegro. You may see in Montenegro plenty Albanian surnames with the montenegrin ending ~ic~. I have already pointed , they are not Albanians.
When i mentioned those areas, i agree that they have albanian roots. However, the rest of Montenegro doesnt have them. Thats why its strange when you say that "Montenegrins" have albanian roots. Those that you mentioned have, and they are a very small part of the population

Why I shall do that?
No idea. Maybe like one of those claims that some albanians make, lthat Alexander the great was actually albanian....

The negative to the number of the views on the thread (just my opinion of course) is that a certain portion of views are due to "tit for tat" comments between those who put energy into representing the national greatness projects of either Albania or Serbia.

The positive to the number of the views has been some rather amusing "cul de sacs" of humor as well as the presentation of sources of which I had been ignorant.

Since most nations tend towards populations of almost 3 million as a workable minimum, I was motivated to share the ratio of views to population in a sense as yet another heroic tale about Montenegro: "These people love history so much, their origins thread has most views per person of any nation on Historum!"

(Montenegro has an advantage in that having a population that is a fraction of 3 million it will be rather difficult for another European nation to generate the same measure on their thread.)
Just goes to show how us, Balkanites can be stubborn when it comes to history, glory, nationalism and all that good jazz :lol:
 
May 2017
43
bucuresti
there could be only 3 hypothesis about montenegrins:
1. they were albanians that adopted slavic language
2.they were latin-speakers(vlachs) that adopted slavic language
3.they were slavs that exterminated the previous latin-vlach or albanian population.

we dont know if montenegro was romanized or not .the arguments in favor of romanization are
1 that romanian language had direct contact for a long time whit south-italian dialects,contact that could be made only in the montenegrin region ,if the jirecek line is right.these couldnt be possible in the croatian region,because there was latin-dalmatian,a latin language different from romanian.
2. the komani-kruje culture could be a latin culture,not an albanian culture.
of course there are counter-arguments to above:
1.jirecek line is wrong and the contact between romanian and south-italian was in southern albanian,along via egnatia,while montenegro keep its albanian language until the expansion of the slavic languages.
2.the latin element in the komani-kruje could be the product of some vlach refugees that didnt change the albanian linguistic domination in the region.
 
Sep 2015
1,711
Romania
we dont know if montenegro was romanized or not .the arguments in favor of romanization are
1 that romanian language had direct contact for a long time whit south-italian dialects,contact that could be made only in the montenegrin region ,if the jirecek line is right.these couldnt be possible in the croatian region,because there was latin-dalmatian,a latin language different from romanian.
Source?
It's true romanian has some connection to south-italian dialects but that's likely because
1) many if not most roman colonists in Dacia were from south Italy (source: Ion Coja, a linguist university professor with a background in history).
2) South Italy has, just like Romania, a thraco-illyrian background with a spice of greek, exactly what we saw in Dacia as well.

Also, realistically, at no point in history could the romanians (with the exception of south-danubian dialects, who might have had some small, isolated contact with south-italians brought to the balkans by the byzantines) have come in contact with the south italians, even more a group of south italians significant enough to influence our language when even the byzantine greek influence is virtually non existent.

The particularities shared between romanian and south-italian (small as they are) dialects originate in the fact the natives assimilated by the romans were similar in both cases and in the fact groups of south italians were moved to Dacia as colonists.

edit: Another possibility is, in any case, that a lot of balkan latins, a lot of thraco-romans (proto-romanians) took refuge in South Italy when the byzantine balkans fell. Again that would explain a lot of similarities without any coexistence taking place.
 
Last edited:
May 2017
43
bucuresti
^^while i have some counters to what you have said, i dont feel is the right topic to answer .i would prefer a discussion here
http://historum.com/european-histor...ance-language-5.html#post2757187?postcount=45

beside,your arguments are not exactly against my position if we go deeper.

in this topic we try to find out what language was spoken in montenegro before the arrival of the slavs.
1.latin(romanian,dalmatian)
2.albanian
3 unknown language, for which we have no evidence.
until now ,in 50 pages no one provided any evidence except cultural similarities that could be explained by geographic proximity.
 
Sep 2015
1,711
Romania
^^while i have some counters to what you have said, i dont feel is the right topic to answer .i would prefer a discussion here
http://historum.com/european-histor...ance-language-5.html#post2757187?postcount=45

beside,your arguments are not exactly against my position if we go deeper.

in this topic we try to find out what language was spoken in montenegro before the arrival of the slavs.
1.latin(romanian,dalmatian)
2.albanian
3 unknown language, for which we have no evidence.
until now ,in 50 pages no one provided any evidence except cultural similarities that could be explained by geographic proximity.
By all means do reply there and I will answer.
 
Dec 2011
4,808
Iowa USA
UPDATE (23 MAY): after another approx 27 000 page views on this thread, there will be a ratio of 1 page view for every 10 Montenegrin citizens.

Could any other nation, aside from the medieval city-states such as an Andorra, in Europe achieve this ratio?
 
May 2017
43
bucuresti
You make huge confusions.

The romanians living in Romania/Bassarabia have never co-existed with albanians for 1 second. Nor did their language.

The words we share are from the native populations and haven't been assimilated by a language at a point in time by coexistance or other means. This is an obvious fact for anybody who knows the basics of linguistics because the words in question are almost all found in the core of the language (romanian) and almost none at the periphery; If these words would have entered the language in any other way, besides being a substratum, there would be a large number of such words in the periphery of the language for every word in the core of the language, not the other way around. This is a scientific fact... and simple logic actually.

In any case, the small numbers of romanians who have co-existed & co-exist with albanians are the romans who survived the great migration & the romanians who migrated to the balkans in the 10th+ century due to the magyar invasion of Pannonia (well recorded migration from the N to the S). But you can't possibly associate this small number of romanians with the language spoken by the other 99% of romanians (those from Romania, Bassarabia, greece, serbia, etc) which has never co-existed with albanians.
thats not true. romanian received direct borrowings from albanian at a time when proto-romanian was near albanian.
the so-called thracian substrat words are actually from albanian .of course ,the romanian nationalists dont want to admit this and invent a common substrate language for albanian and romanian,that supposedly was thracian or dacian.
the explication is much simple.the first romanized people in the balkans were romanized albanians .and when the latin language spread to north of balkan these romanised albanians preserve some core words from the previous language.
in fact the influence of albanian in romanian goes much deeper than romanian nationalist admit .for example they try to explain the word creier(brain) as coming from the latin cerebelum,when is more simple to assume that it came from the albanian krye(head).
there are even expressions that dont make sense in romanian but make sense in albanian.for example "his face turn green(verde) whit fear" but we know that the face turn yellow ,not green.however in albanian the word verdhe mean yellow.
 
Likes: Mrnjacevic84
Mar 2019
9
Sweden
Im orthodox montenegrin from Kuc tribe, i am from mrnjacevics which i saw someone mentioned as being of serbian descent so i wanted to answer this question, those people who say that are either from Serbia or does really not have anything to do with montenegrin tribes. I dont blame you it is only the manipulated history you read, which i also thought to be true before. I have grown up most of my life as being serb i thought, my mother is ethnic serbian so most of that comes from her side and her families. But my dad was always saying we dont nothing to do with them and we have always been there, i was confused because once me and my brother were talking about serbian patriotism, after watching news about war in Kosovo, and my elder brother was shouting bad words about albanians and he wanted to join Serbian army. We were living in Pec Kosovo back then before we moved to Europe. This was around 97 i guess the war had not started but some guerilla fights i think i was young back then. The reason im explaining all this is a core of something i discovered which i never knew before. My brother was 6 years older then me. I remember that day mom and dad had a huge fight and my dad was really mad at her , and he was saying bad stuff to her about her family and bad stuff about Serbian politics. I remember he called my grandfather and was really mad at him and warning him about not teaching propagnda to his sons. I remember dad telling me and my brother that albanians are much closer to us then we think, and he said they are closer to us then serbs, that made me even more confused because we were learning a history of our tribe ( we went in serbian school) and basicaly the whole serbain pride almost was built on legend of the tribe we came from Montenegro before we migrated to Kosovo somewhere in 1960. I remember my brother was fighting with my dad and he was crying because he was really proud serb and he called my dad bad stuff. My dad decided because of this events to move first to Montenegro then we went to Germany...Summer 2001 we went to Montenegro my grandfather was still alive living in Podgorica that summer was special for me and my brother because we were at grandpas for 2 months. He told us that summer that we are of albanian descent as all of real montenegrin tribes are but people because of politics choose to not talk about it, but he said that most of elders know that and some of them still speak albanian. But they forgot it because people got splitted because of religion he told us that arbanashi got splitted into 3 religions those that became muslims became closer to turks, catholics still held closer to Italy and we orthodox because of religion became closer to serbs and greeks. But he actually told us that church had tricked us and started to tell propaganda about who we are, those who were orthodox were told they are from
Mrnjacevic and catholic church told catholics kuc they are from kastriot-skenderbeg ( drekalovici). But indeed the both of them are false he meant it back then, which genetics also proved because all kuci are related, they just had been told different storys to feel more proud in fight against turks. To be honest mrnjacevics came from Albania as catholics and all in kuc know that, they were later told by the orthodox church that they belonged to a orthodox royal family from Macedonia. Abd they were told that they had escaped frim turks and had been living amongst albanians for 2 generations thats why they had learnt albanian and were catholics because there was no orthodox church in region. I can tell you this is false and i really wanted to belive this because i was literally broken when i found out that i am not what i thought i was, my brother was totally ruined. Grandpa hugged us and he told us that what we were told and taught is a big lie, and he wanted to teach us about the real history and who arbanashi and arnauti used to be. He took us to Kuc we met a lot of our family, catholics muslims and orthodox. This was really funny but they live together still and they are related all of them. He with his old mates told us the same story and they used to laugh and tell jokes on albanian some of them spoke albanian fluently eveb though they were orthodox montenegrins. My brother was crushed and so was i but it didnt take long time to accept it. Both of us got really interested in albanian history and we have been learning about it since then, and i got to say after so many years today i feel proud of my albanian roots and i discovered the whole new world for me and i learnt about great heros. I am half Serb as well from my mother side and i feel proud of it too even though i discovered alot of regime history was false, but thats mainly due to religion. And serbs have borrowed some great albanian heros in their history because pf the same religion, but guys religion doesnt have anything to do with origins and ethnicity. I also never knew before that there are some 20-30 percent of albanians that are orthodox before i thought that my religion is exclusive to serbs greeks and russians, but today i know better and i have learnt to always search for facts. Btw all of this is approved by dna the kuc have illyric dna, not as we were taught by church that we are slavic people. Today i have many Albanian friends because i have been living in europe for ages and im trying to learn albanian i have learnt some words but the language is really hard, maybe one day i will marry an albanian women. Because now i really want people to know the truth and i want to learn the language of my grandfathers, i feel so responsible now because i know the truth. Btw my elder brother is even prouder then i am of our descent and knows alot more then i do about our history. He also learnt alot more albanian then i do, he has also given his sons some ancient albanian names. The reason behind this post is nothing else then just to appoint some facts , i really wish my people were not hating on each other and i wish peace because before 1900 we were really good comrads. Pozdravljam sve Srbe i Crnogorce,bosnjake i sve narode bivse jugoslavije dhe i pershendes Shqipetaret kudo qe jane. Forget about hate let us move forward
 

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