Origins of Aryans

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,446
Australia
So now people are trying to twist the meaning of words to fit their assumptions?
Pond in Sanskrit has various names none of which is Samudra.
We are never saying it meant pond in the first place . Are you even following the conversation here ? or just turning up ocassionaly to rant the same old over and over ?

Samudra means sea.
Like , the Aral Sea ?



This is ridiculous and this is exactly how the AIT proponents have pushed through with their bogus theory, with mistranslations, misrepresentations.
And what you just did there is typical of OOI proponents .

Writing essays on this forum does not make your argument any more credible.
Rig veda might have a few changes over the years but for the most part it is unchanged and is more reliable and more credible than all the pathetic linguistic assumptions made to fit AIT/AMT.
Some one randomly says a word does not mean pond, all of a sudden its attributed to us and then hansolo chastises us for it .

Thats how OOI school operates . Ha!
 

Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,590
USA
So now people are trying to twist the Rig Veda to fit their assumptions?

This is ridiculous and this is exactly how the OIT proponents have pushed through with their bogus theory, with mistranslations and misrepresentations.

Writing terse comments and denying logic and science does not make your argument any more credible.
AIT/AMT might have a few changes over the years but for the most part, the underlying model is unchanged and is more reliable and more credible than all the pathetic assumptions made to fit the OIT.



This does not answer my question. Given that the RV was committed to writing thousands of years later and the oldest surviving manuscript is dated to the first 1 millennium CE, how do we know that the RV was not "corrupted" prior in the sense that we can still rely on the RV to yield insights about Vedic era India?



I did not, but thank you for showing me yet another study that supports the fundamental conclusions of the studies I've already linked to.

The studies I previously listed were all aware of the Ghaggar-Hakra's well known alternating capture by the Yamuna and the Sutlej, both of which are fed by Himalayan glaciers, so it is not surprising such sediments are found in the Ghaggar-Hakra. What IS interesting to me is that the Ghaggar-Hakra was not nearly as weak after the onset of the Holocene as was initially thought and the study says this was primarily due to its capture by the Sutlej (until around 4.5 kya). I did find the idea that Harappan settlements sprung along a seasonal riverbed odd, so the scenario proposed in the paper makes more sense by far.

Of course, it would be interesting to see what the rest of the scientific community's responses are and how the differences between the studies are to be reconciled. This is the beauty of science, that it continually corrects and improves upon itself unlike the conspiracy theories pushed in this forum.

Since the Rig Veda states that the Sutlej and the Beas flow together, this is more evidence that its composition post-dates the disconnection of the Sutlej with the Ghaggar-Hakra. The question of why it mentions the Sarasvati as a mighty river powerful enough to crush mountain ridges and flowing through the high mountains still needs to be resolved, but I have already discussed a class of hypotheses involving the idea that the RV incorporates several layers of references to different Sarasvati rivers.
I said that the methods of committing text to memory are very strong and so the possibility of corruption becomes less. Further, because many branches of Vedas have independent lineages and a constant cross verification has happened, it makes the text relatively stable.

The hymns of Rig Veda are of varied themes. Of the ones that are most helpful in recognizing the space and time of composition are the ones that talk about rivers, Kings, Rshis, flora and fauna, etc.. Another very important aspect is the description of the river that dwindled over time by chronologically later works such as TAndya BrAhmana and MahAbhArata. This gives us a fairly good understanding of latest time frame Rig Veda can be placed. This time frame is certainly before 2000 BCE, and that is bad for AMT/AIT.

The recent study on Saraswati that I posted clearly indicates that the river was fully flowing during the early Harappan age, and this corroborates with the textual evidence of Rig Veda. If you have doubts, you could contact the authors of their conclusion in this matter. I don't know what you comprehended, but the introduction has these lines:

"
This revived perennial condition of the Ghaggar, which can be correlated with the Saraswati, likely facilitated development of the early Harappan settlements along its banks. The timing of the eventual decline of the river, which led to the collapse of the civilization, approximately coincides with the commencement of the Meghalayan Stage.

"


Rig Veda does not say that Sutlej and Beas flowed together. Please cite the hymn that says so. I can certainly post all the related hymns that talk about Saraswati and other rivers and give a fair understanding of the geography. Since the Rig Veda also clearly mentions all the major rivers in Pakistan and Afghanistan, there is no reason for us to believe that there were different Saraswati rivers that they were talking about. Both in Rig Veda and Avesta, Saraswati is not one among the seven rivers or Sapta Sindhava. So quite clearly, Saraswati of Rig Veda is the Ghaggar river.

One more point is that there is a word "Haraswati" in Rig Veda that stems from root "Harah", and to me it indicates that the possibility of Haraxvati of Avesta changing to Saraswati is zilch. The other way of transformation is an affirmative one, Saraswati->Haraxwati.
 
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Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,814
New Delhi, India
DID NOT end in a pond ? Well, goodness me !
I shall have to change my views on this . Here I was thinking that the mighty Sarasvati finally ended in a ...
How come you people are discussing Indian Aryans without inviting me in.

Yes, Srimad Bhagawat purana mentions the mighty Saraswati ending in a depression perhaps somewhere near Vijaynagar Suratgarh Hanumangarh and names the place appropriately as Vinashan (which itself means The End). Arjuna and Krishna visited that place during Yudhishthirs Rajasuya yajna. See the green line petering out in a desert beyond Gharsana.

1575440142005.png

That is not the only place where desert rivers dried up in India, Afghanistan and Central Asia. In Rajasthan, apart from Suratgarh (which becomes a swamp with the Gagghar waters in rains) we have Sambhar and pachpadra lakes (Skt. panchbhadra, i.e., the drying place of five streams). In Afghanistan you have the Helmand depression where the combined stream of Helmand and Arghandhab ends, and in Central Asia the Tedzhen depression where river Harirud-Tejen ends, Merv depression where River Murghab ends, and lastly the huge Aral Sea where rivers Oxus and Juxartes end. Aral, now is just a remnant of what existed at one time. These water bodies when full can certainly be described as seas.

Formerly the fourth largest lake in the world with an area of 68,000 sq.km (26,300 sq mi), the Aral Sea has been shrinking since the 1960s after the rivers that fed it were diverted by Soviet irrigation projects. By 1997, it had declined to 10% of its original size - Wikiedia: Aral Sea
 
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Apr 2018
313
Italy
What i find "anomalous" about Indo Arian is that they introduced the cast system in India and Iran. Other IE people didn't do this when they settled in Europe. Can be sometning developed during the Andronovo culture?
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,814
New Delhi, India
There was nothing new that Indian Arians introduced. Do you think the indigenous society was without any divisions.
What the Indo Arians (your spelling, we generally write Indo-Aryans :)) introduced was another set of four fold division and these two were fused during assimilation.
So, now we have four major divisions and hundreds, if not thousands of divisions, within each of the four divisions - that is what Caste is.

If you ask me who I am, I would say firstly I am a brahmin (my Arian division by birth, family), then Saraswata (original region), then Kashmiri (last region where my people lived), then Guru (profession, conducting ritual) and lastly Aupamanyava (genealogical line - gotra). All this is imortant for matrimonial purposes. Further, my family follows the Malamas calender (tradition) and my family deity is Goddes Jwala (therefore, I am allowed to have non-vegetrian food even during the nine days of the worship of the Mother Goddess in Fall). :D
 
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robto

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
6,207
Lisbon, Portugal
What i find "anomalous" about Indo Arian is that they introduced the cast system in India and Iran. Other IE people didn't do this when they settled in Europe. Can be sometning developed during the Andronovo culture?
Maybe because when the Aryan population arrived in the subcontinent they perceived the authoctonous population so different and dissimilar from them - and also far more populous when compared to the Europeans prior the Indo-European expansion - that made them create a sort of a segregated and highly hierarchic society. That's only my speculation, though.
 
Apr 2018
313
Italy
Maybe because when the Aryan population arrived in the subcontinent they perceived the authoctonous population so different and dissimilar from them - and also far more populous when compared to the Europeans prior the Indo-European expansion - that made them create a sort of a segregated and highly hierarchic society. That's only my speculation, though.
If i'm not wrong pre islamic Iran had a caste system also. However the highter population is could also be.

There was nothing new that Indian Arians introduced. Do you think the indigenous society was without any divisions.
What the Indo Arians (your spelling, we generally write Indo-Aryans :)) introduced was another set of four fold division and these two were fused during assimilation.
So, now we have four major divisions and hundreds, if not thousands of divisions, within each of the four divisions - that is what Caste is.
So you think that Harappans and followers civilizations derived had a caste system also?
 
Nov 2014
500
India
english came from england, it didn't come from germany. English people are not descendent of anglo saxons, they are native to england, thats like saying the anatolians are descendents of turkic tribes form central asia just because they speak turkish. Bulgarians are named after bulgar turkic tribe, but they are not turkic but slavic

regards
Most of the English, French and German tribe names relate to German tribes. France is derived from the German tribes of Franks. Normans from the Norvey (Norse). Angeles, Saxons are names of Germanic tribes.
 
Nov 2014
500
India
The 'aryan identity' goes back to before they split into Iranian and Indic groups, i.e. back to their common Indo-Iranian origin at least, before they settled in Iran and India.
Avesta is of later origin than Vedas. Iranians are aware if Indo-Saraswathi but ancient Vedic people were not familiar with Iran.
 

robto

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
6,207
Lisbon, Portugal
If i'm not wrong pre islamic Iran had a caste system also. However the highter population is could also be.
If that is true, than you are right that some kind of unique structure was developed among the Andronovo Culture people in order for them to expand that Caste system wherever they went.